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Paul Anthony Llossas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 August 2005
Posts: 1600
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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<<<And Shakespeare said "The play's the thing.">>>
I gotta be honest--I'm scratching my head over this response.
I know where it's from, but could someone explain the context with regard
to my post? (Shakespeare was never my best subject, I'm afraid.)
Well, since you said "someone" Glenn, I'll take a stab at it. In your previous post, you thanked Mr. Byrne for vindicating your shared "Goblin theory". The "play within a play" in Hamlet vindicates (to his mind) the titular character's course of action he undertakes in the rest of the play. Paraphrasing the Bard, the play "was the thing...to catch the conscience of the king."
*Edited for phrasing
Edited by Paul Anthony Llossas on 04 January 2008 at 3:35pm
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Bruce Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4797
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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It also doesn't hurt that Ron Frenz draws the best looking Hobgoblin.
***********
I agree with that 100%, Paul. Ron Frenz is a long-time personal favorite and he is doing the best work of his career these days, in my opinion. And "real" or not, I find Amazing Spider-Girl to be one darned good comic book month after month, year after year.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 3
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SER: How late in the game was this, may I ask? One thing that bugged me about PP:SM #75 was when Peter took off his mask and said that this wasn't about Spider-Man and the Goblin but about Peter Parker and Norman Osborn. This elicited a WTF? reaction from me as Peter Parker and Norman Osborn had no relationship. The relationship was between Spider-Man and the Goblin. And Norman Osborn (when not the Goblin) didn't even remember Peter's dual identity.
*****
Norman killed Peter's one true love. Peter killed Norman's son. It was personal at that point.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 4
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Norman killed Peter's one true love. Peter killed Norman's son. It was personal at that point.
***
SER: No The Green Goblin and Spider-Man did those things. This is like Batman saying that his battle with the Joker is between Bruce Wayne and, well, whoever the Joker is.
They had no personal relationship outside of the costumes and the battles. It's not like they took their personal issues to a higher level.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 5
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SER: No The Green Goblin and Spider-Man did those things. This is like Batman saying that his battle with the Joker is between Bruce Wayne and, well, whoever the Joker is.
*****
They knew eachothers idenitys at that point. If Batman and Joker knew eachothers ids and did those things, then it would be personal with them.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 6
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Since when did Spider-Man kill Harry? Harry caused his own death, just as Norman did.
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Bruce Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4797
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 7
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That's true. But Norman blames Spider-Man for killing Harry. In fact, Harry's death is what brought him back from his self-imposed exile - he wanted revenge.
Edited by Bruce Buchanan on 04 January 2008 at 3:53pm
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 8
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True, but that's not what Victor said. Just making sure we're all on the same page.
(But, given what's happened in recent years, some crazy retcon might have revealed that Spider-Man really did kill Harry...)
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 9
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I was going from Norman's twisted perception. In the end Norman had more to do with Harry's death than anyone.
Edited by Victor .R. Rodgers on 04 January 2008 at 4:31pm
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Glenn Greenberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 10
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<<<How late in the game was this, may I ask?>>>
We were going to reveal in April 1996 that Harry was the mastermind,
that he was the guy who had been walking around as "Gaunt." That would
have been the end of the Clone Saga.
In January 1996, a new EIC took over and was apprised of our plans. Two
things came down immediately from this EIC: one, it had to be Norman,
not Harry, who was the mastermind. Two, we had to delay the big
reveal--and the resolution of the Clone Saga--until October. The most
likely reason for the delay: ONSLAUGHT/HEROES REBORN was taking
place around the same time, and that was more of a priority for the
company.
So during those extra months we now had, "Gaunt" had to be revealed not
as the mastermind, but as a flunky of the REAL mastermind. We had to
add a whole additional layer to the intrigue.
<<<One thing that bugged me about PP:SM #75 was when Peter took off
his mask and said that this wasn't about Spider-Man and the Goblin but
about Peter Parker and Norman Osborn. This elicited a WTF? reaction
from me as Peter Parker and Norman Osborn had no relationship. The
relationship was between Spider-Man and the Goblin. And Norman
Osborn (when not the Goblin) didn't even remember Peter's dual
identity.>>>
That came directly from the EIC too. And it bugged the HELL out of me.
As I recall, Peter's line was, "This has never been about Spider-Man and
the Green Goblin. It's always been about Peter Parker and Norman
Osborn." It was the EIC's feeling that this was what the whole story should
really be all about, what it should all come down to. Problem is, it doesn't
hold any water when you stop and think about it. As far as I can tell, it IS,
and always HAS been, about Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, because
WITHOUT Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, there would be NO conflict
whatsoever between Peter Parker and Norman Osborn. Spider-Man and
the Green Goblin were archenemies long before Peter and Norman ever
knew of each other.
Of course, the conflict between them greatly intensified after they
discovered each other's true identities, but when all is said and done, it
was really Spider-Man and the Goblin who were at war with each other,
and that was what everything revolved around. This EIC didn't understand
Spider-Man nearly as much as he thought he did. He was far more in his
element when it came to the X-Men.
Edited by Glenn Greenberg on 04 January 2008 at 4:24pm
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Mike Bunge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1335
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 11
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"That's true. But Norman blames Spider-Man for killing Harry. In fact, Harry's death is what brought him back from his self-imposed exile - he wanted revenge."
How much did Norman ever really care about Harry, anyway? And are we talking about Norman Osborn...or the Goblin persona? Didn't those two things used to be distinct?
Mike
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 04 January 2008 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think he loved Harry. Its just he was an awful parent before becoming the Goblin. I think by the time he returned that the Goblin and Norman personas merged completely.
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