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Richard Stevens
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1954
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 1
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Doesn't Peter have proof of the afterlife? Hasn't he *been* there, met
ghosts, hung out with mystics? Why did he decide to torture Aunt May for
a few extra years by preventing her from being with Ben?
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 2
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Marriage was wrong for Spider-Man because the character was always someone who had a rotating cast of girlfriends -- this reinforced his youth, as that's what the romantic life of teens is like (there's always a new love of the week). I think getting rid of Gwen Stacy was a good idea -- she had been "the girlfriend" for way too long. I just would have written her out of the book (not killed her).
For me, at least, one of the core problems with the marriage was that Mary Jane was never a character who should have become Spider-Man's "Lois Lane." Especially since everything that made her interesting (the wacky party girl) was lost once she had to "grow up" and become a wife.
Superman marrying Lois Lane had its problems (namely the elimination of the classic Clark/Lois/Superman triangle) but at least it did not critically ruin the core concepts of the characters. Lois Lane could remain the feisty reporter who got into jams and required Superman's assistance. Superman, also, was not known as a character with a roaming eye -- Lois was always pretty much his girl. Though, yes, I did miss the Lois and Lana triangle from the late '70s/early '80s.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
| The bad news is it apparently wasn't well done (I haven't read any Spidey since the Clone Saga). In my opinion, Spider-Man has been mishandled for years. Yet the books sold. How big a mistake could it be to have Spider-totems and the other plot threads mentioned above if the books sold so well? The books sold. |
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Not this argument again. In this bar-lowered age, sure, they sold. But even with those lowered expectations, how many people bought/buy the issues out of habit, to complete a collection, or from speculation?
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 03 January 2008 at 10:11am
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Howard Mackie
Byrne Robotics Security
Armed and Dangerous
Joined: 16 February 2005
Posts: 666
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 4
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<<Not this argument again. In this bar-lowered age, sure, they sold. But even with those lowered expectations, how many people bought/buy the issues out of habit, to complete a collection, or from speculation?>>
There is no argument here. I assure you that the powers that be at Marvel do not give a rat's butt about qulaity, or protecting the characters, or even good stories. The guys upstairs would let anything continue as long as sales are there...whether it be be from habit, impulse buy, or because they like the pretty pictures. THAT is just a fact.
Howard
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 5
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Doesn't Peter have proof of the afterlife? Hasn't he *been* there, met
ghosts, hung out with mystics? Why did he decide to torture Aunt May for
a few extra years by preventing her from being with Ben?
••
This is a common conceit of superhero comics. Obviously, in the world of the Marvel
Universe, everything would be very different. Aliens, ghosts, magic, time travel -
- these would not be the stuff of science fiction and fantasy. Think of it this way:
when I tried to read the first WILD CARDS book, I was stopped dead by a reference to
the movie THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL. This indicated instantly, to me, that the
writers had not thought through their imaginary world. After all, if aliens were known -
- definitely known -- to have arrived on Earth in the 1940s, why would TDTESS ever
have been made?
So, with superhero worlds. Everything would be so very different that, if we played
them "realistically", they'd soon be carried to a place where those of us who do not live
in that world would have no points of identification. Thus, Peter doesn't "know" that
May would be with Ben if she died, just as a police detective doesn't "know" he can
phone up the FF and ask to use their time machine to solve a case.
(Roger Stern used to talk about a story he'd read in which a Spectre-like character,
testifying in a murder trial, summoned the deceased to identify the killer! How
different would that world be!!)
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
| There is no argument here. I assure you that the powers that be at Marvel do not give a rat's butt about qulaity, or protecting the characters, or even good stories. The guys upstairs would let anything continue as long as sales are there...whether it be be from habit, impulse buy, or because they like the pretty pictures. THAT is just a fact. |
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Precisely.
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Richard Stevens
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1954
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 7
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"Thus, Peter doesn't "know" that May would be with Ben if she died, just as
a police detective doesn't "know" he can phone up the FF and ask to use
their time machine to solve a case. "
Ah, good point. I'll go back to wondering why Dr. Strange didn't just
conjure something comforting to that effect in order to soothe Peter's
mind and help him let go.
Did you like the Wild Cards books otherwise? I think I need to find those.
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Richard Stevens
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1954
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 8
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Side thought brought on by JB's mention of the FF's time machine:
Didn't Aunt May and MJ use Doom's time machine with Peter during the
infamous "Aunt May is: Grey Iron Man!" story? Even if they couldn't save
her with time travel, why not go back in time and surreptitiously have one
last moment with May and use that to find out her views on the matter?
Edited by Richard Stevens on 03 January 2008 at 10:41am
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Paulo Pereira
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
Didn't Aunt May and MJ use Doom's time machine with Peter during the
infamous "Aunt May is: Grey Iron <strike>Man</strike> Crone!" story? |
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Yup.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 03 January 2008 at 10:48am
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Glenn Greenberg
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 10
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<<<Divorced Spidey: bad example for the kiddies>>>
Bullshit.
I just don't get this 1950s mentality when it comes to the topic of divorce.
More than half the marriages in the U.S. today end in divorce. It's a fact of
life. There's no stigma against it anymore.
As JQ himself mentions in the CBR interview, the marriage was a rush job
in the first place--Peter and MJ went from being strictly friends to
married within the space of like three months. Why not USE that to your
advantage? Peter and MJ were very young, impulsive, and idealistic when
they got married. They rushed into it. They weathered a lot of storms
together, but they've reached a point where they realize that they were
better off as the best of friends, and thank God they reached that
realization before they actually did bring a child into the world who'd now
have to be raised in a broken family.
And to all of those who argue that divorce "ages" Peter--does it age him
any more than MAKING HIM A TEACHER? Or establishing (as one writer
did) that he was bitten by the radioactive spider 15 YEARS AGO? Or
DRAWING HIM TO LOOK LIKE HE'S IN HIS 30s???? All of which has been
done over the last seven years.
Britney Spears has been divorced twice already. Does it make her seem
any OLDER? No.
STUPIDER? Yes. But OLDER? No.
Edited by Glenn Greenberg on 04 January 2008 at 10:46pm
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Glenn Greenberg
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Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 11
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<<<I beleive Glenn argued(and some of us supported) that a divorce ONLY
ages a character IF the stories are about the character being divorced.>>>
I'll gladly take the credit for that, but I'll add that I also remember Tom
DeFalco using NYPD BLUE as an example. We knew Jimmy Smits's character
was a widower, but the episodes weren't ABOUT him being a widower. For all
intents and purposes, he was a single guy, which allowed him to play the
field until he ended up with Kim Delaney.
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Glenn Greenberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 03 January 2008 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 12
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<<<"What didn’t occur was the marriage. Peter and MJ were together, they
loved each other -- they just didn’t pull the trigger on the wedding day. All
the books count, all the stories count -- except in the minds of the people
within the Marvel U, Peter and MJ were a couple, not a married couple.">>>
So... why aren't they still together in BRAND NEW DAY? As a couple, I mean,
not as a married couple. Shouldn't the readers know and understand why?
Is this like that spell that prevented the original Defenders from ever
reuniting? (We know what ultimately became of that.)
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Topic Closed)
