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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4878
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Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | 1
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Shooter's handling of Henry Pym from his return in AVENGERS #211 to his disgrace in #212-213 is pretty abysmal. One of the stalwarts of the group was taken on the trip to a nervous breakdown in a span of 1 1/2 issues.
Here's a brief timeline for Hank from his introduction in TALES TO ASTONISH to his retirement as a super-hero -
TALES TO ASTONISH #27 - Dr. Henry Pym develops shrinking formula
TALES TO ASTONISH #35 - Pym assumes the identity of the Ant-Man
TALES TO ASTONISH #44 - Janet Van Dyne debuts and assumes the identity of the Wasp
AVENGERS #1 - Ant-Man and the Wasp join the Avengers as founding members
TALES TO ASTONISH #49 - Pym assumes the identity of Giant-Man after developing a growth serum.
AVENGERS #16 - Giant-Man and the Wasp take a leave of absence
AVENGERS #28 - Pym assumes the identity of Goliath, Goliath and the Wasp rejoin the Avengers. Pym is trapped at 10-feet in height
AVENGERS #35 - With the help of Dr. Bill Foster, Pym regains his size-changing ability
AVENGERS #54 - Ultron, a sentient robot created by Pym attacks the Avengers
AVENGERS #59 - After inhaling chemical fumes Pym assumes the identity of Yellowjacket and proposes to the Janet Van Dyne
AVENGERS #60 - Pym [as Yellowjacket] and Janet Van Dyne are married
AVENGERS #63 - Clint Barton assumes the identity of Goliath
AVENGERS #74 - Yellowjacket and the Wasp take a leave of absence
AVENGERS #137 - Yellowjacket and the Wasp rejoin the Avengers
AVENGERS #161 - Pym is brainwashed by Ultron and attacks the Avengers as Ant-Man
AVENGERS #164 - Yellowjacket returns to active membership
AVENGERS #201 - Yellowjacket and the Wasp take a leave of absence
AVENGERS #211 - Yellowjacket and the Wasp rejoin the Avengers
AVENGERS #212 - Acting erratically, Yellowjacket shoots the Elfqueen in the back with his disruptors after she had stopped fighting
AVENGERS #213 - Pym is court-martialed. He programs a robot to attack during his court-martial, the Wasp discovers his plan and Pym strikes her. Pym is further humiliated when the Wasp defeats the robot after Pym fails to deactivate it when it attacks the Avengers. Yellowjacket resigns his membership in the Avengers.
AVENGERS #217 - Pym is framed by Egghead, defeated by the Avengers and jailed.
AVENGERS #224 - Tony Stark has an affair with Jan Pym
AVENGERS #228 - Egghead abducts Pym during his trial
AVENGERS #229 - Pym defeats Egghead and his Masters of Evil. Egghead, as he prepares to kill Pym, is accidentally killed by Hawkeye.
AVENGERS #230 - Pym is acquitted, and retires as a super-hero
Edited by Robert Bradley on 28 December 2007 at 10:56pm
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Larry Morris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007 Location: United States Posts: 622
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 12:01am | IP Logged | 2
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<<Then over in the Ultimates they took the wife beating thing to a really insane level where he initiates a brawl with his wife/girlfriend, sprays her with bug spray, and sends ants to nearly sting her to death after calling her a mutie slut.>>
Boy, am I glad that I never so much as looked at that title. Everything I ever read about it made it seem like a bastardization of the Avengers. At least there, though, I don't think if it as the "real" characters. I do with 616.
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Jozef Brandt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 March 2007 Location: United States Posts: 2669
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 12:13am | IP Logged | 3
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Ultimates was where marvel lost me completely. They let Millar take a big pee over everything I loved about Marvel. They ram-roddded current events into comics in a way that hadn't been done before, and I felt like I'd been stabbed in the heart with a sharpened paint brush while Millar stole my wallet. (yes I'm being melodramatic)
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Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 4
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Well, from that page(thanks for posting it by the way) it seems he's not even doing something that's personal. I always thought that a slap was relatively acceptable in years past in terms of men vs. women. It seems like it's been shown in movies and t.v. shows for years.
I'm not condoning doing such a thing but to say that Hank is a wife beater from what happened on that page is a bit of stretch. Also, isn't she a super hero? She's not the same as a normal woman in that regard and his backhand slap, when she's trying to restrain him, seems relatively understandable between two people who make a living fighting crime and solving situations with their fists.
Now, the Ultimates version of the same situation was much more graphic and obviously spousal abuse. Of course, I don't even know what's "real" anymore in Marvel comics. It's basically an elseworlds/what if? universe so does it even count in respect to the "real" Hank Pym?
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Robert Paganini Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 August 2007 Location: United States Posts: 30
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:13am | IP Logged | 5
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AVENGERS #224 - Tony Stark has an affair with Jan Pym
Can I get some more details? I had never heard of this.
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Thanos Kollias Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004 Location: Greece Posts: 5009
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:41am | IP Logged | 6
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Re: #224, from memory alone (spoiler print): Hank is in jail, Tony and Jan start dating and who knows what else, then Jan learns Iron-Man is Tony Stark and they break up, more or less.
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Ron Chevrier Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1641
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 2:41am | IP Logged | 7
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The panel of Hank striking Jan is the only time he has struck her, and again he was teetering on the brink of a nervous collapse. Is it fair to paint him as a wife-beater from that single lapse? Is it fair to question his scientific abilities and morals because of that?
Hank served his time, went on to serve in the Avengers on both the East and West Coasts, and his team mates are questioning his abilities. How is this good writing?
As someone else pointed out, Stark had an affair with Jan while Hank was in prison. Some pal. Stark, who has had two major bouts of alcoholism, the second of which caused him to lose his company, who is bonded to the most sophisticated technological weapon known to man, cannot incorporate a firewall into it, leaving him open to possession by a technological entity like Ultron. Granted, Pym did create Ultron, but in my book, Stark's moral lapses and hubris are far greater. How can the Avengers and Shield put so much blind faith in Stark while viewing Hank Pym with so much suspicion.
Again, I feel that the writing is severely biased against Hank Pym for a single isolated incident in which he was not in complete control of his faculties.
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Chris Durnell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1235
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 8
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This is an example of a story incident that Marvel's editorial offices should have stated, "This incident will never again be referenced by our publications." Once Hank Pym reached a "redemption" point when he could be an ongoing heroic character again there was no positive good to ever refer to this story.
Also, I never read the Crossing story, but I'm sure I heard someone say that in it was revealed that Kang had tried to mind control Pym, and his instability around this time was the result of him fighting it off. I know this also lead to Kang actually mind controlling Tony Stark, but once I heard that I thought it pretty much excused Hank because he was clearly not responsible for his own actions AND it showed considerable willpower. If anything is ever referenced from the Crossing, it should be that.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4878
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 9
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Chris,
I think it should have stopped well before that point. Unfortunately, not only was Jim Shooter the writer at the time, but he was also the Editor-in-Chief. In hindsight, the editor of the book [Jim Scalirup] probably should have told Shooter 'Look, this whole story is fine, but we need to take the part about Hank hitting Jan out, or have him threaten to hit her and hold himself back, The way it's written is just going to damage the character to severely."
Having Shooter as Editor-in-Chief at the time might have left Scalirup in a difficult position when it came to making that call.
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | 10
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Judging from that page, I don't think spousal abuse was even intended to be an issue. It was just an unfortunate, reflexive act by a highly stressed individual. It looked like it was to get her away from him, not to purposesly give her a shiner - though I think it would have been better if it were depicted as a pushing away than a backhanded slap; that would have served the writer's point equally well. Still, it does not justify giving the character an indelible black mark.
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Chris Durnell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1235
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm inclined to agree with Paulo. At the time, that one panel slap might not have been seen as wife beating. It was only after the fact that it was realized this was very bad.
Still, I think Robert has a point overall - Hank Pym should not have been written that way to begin with. If it appeared that Hank Pym was lost in the limelight of his glamorous spouse, it would have been better to give him some sort of big success to compensate.
However, mistakes always made. Once they exist, there are two possible solutions: keep dredging it up in an attempt to "correct" it, or simply pretend it never happens and hope their is consensus among readers to forget it as well. Unfortunately, the first option is almost always chosen.
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 29 December 2007 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
Still, I think Robert has a point overall - Hank Pym should not have been written that way to begin with. |
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I agree. All the things detailed in Emery's post seem like a harsh thing to do to a hero character, especially a charter member of the Avengers.
QUOTE:
However, mistakes always made. Once they exist, there are two possible solutions: keep dredging it up in an attempt to "correct" it, or simply pretend it never happens and hope their is consensus among readers to forget it as well. Unfortunately, the first option is almost always chosen. |
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I don't know if anyone is attempting to correct the problem. It seems the attempt is to more make the mark even more indelible and paint Hank Pym as the black sheep of the superhero world. The thinking seems to be "This guy has sunk pretty low; let's keep him there. No one will care."
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 29 December 2007 at 4:20pm
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