Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 32 Next >>
Topic: Whatever happened to the X-Men? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 1  

It would be easy enough, on the face of it, to assume the opposite, but American comics, especially superhero comics, have long been hotbeds of liberalism. Lots of folk on both sides of the equation, fans and pros, who cling to the notion that even the most dastardly villain (quick, someone mention Hitler!) can be redeemed, "rehabilitated". In the light of this, I expect even I would have a lot less trouble accepting the "turning" of some villains, even some really bad ones, if some kind of moral point or lesson was being made. Alas, too often the real justification is some writer's whim --- or that the villain has a cool costume.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35946
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 2  

Not sure of the writer's intent, but I, for one, could never envision a scenario in which the White Queen became a card carrying member of the X-Men.  It's just not in her character.  Neither is it in Mystique's.  Both characters have to be written radically different, as was Magneto during the time he ran the X-Men, in order for them to work as heroes.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Scott McKeeve
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 November 2007
Posts: 835
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 3  

"You can easily make the case that Magneto is not a villain at all. 

Aside from the mass-murderer part, you mean?"

JB, I know what point you're getting at here and you know what I'm going for, as well. So off we go: if your species was potentially being murdered, exploited, enslaved, etc., then are you a mass murderer or are you justifiably defending your species?

I was born into a world where a very active cold war was progressing toward what many of us believed was mutually assured destruction. And that destruction of two countries/societies would have more than likely been an extinction level event for humanity. I grew up feeling completely powerless and just prayed that nuclear war would not happen.

Now, I never asked for either side to imperil my life but, none-the-less, the threat was real and I was endangered. If I had suddenly been given Magneto's powers and had a team of similarly powered individuals to support me, I honestly believe I would have taken steps to prevent a nuclear war. Would you be any different?

I watched 60 Minutes last night and Anderson Cooper did a story on the continued destruction of the mountain gorillas in central Africa. I think they said the population is down to about 600-700 now. And humans are still killing them off. They showed the recent murder of a tribe, not for poaching, but simply to send a message to the Rangers to back off.

While humanity at its best has strived for virtue and a peaceful coexistance, the reality of our species is one of overwhelming destruction to anything around us. If one of those gorillas woke up with the ability to kill all six billion of us, I don't think I could make an honest argument in stopping it. Those gorillas will be extinct in less than twenty years and it's all because of humanity. We are bad apes. 



Edited by Scott McKeeve on 10 December 2007 at 6:21pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Yvonne Christian
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1231
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 4  

Whoever came up with this female clone of Wolverine doesn't know anything about science fiction.  A clone is supposed to be an exact duplicate of the person.  This X-23 is a person with Wolverine's DNA and some female scientist's DNA.

Didn't Mystique murder Moira MacTaggert a few years ago?  Or did they bring Moira back from the dead?  I would find it hard for Mystique to join the X-Men if she did kill Moira.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35946
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | 5  

 Scott McKeeve wrote:
JB, I know what point you're getting at here and you know what I'm going for, as well. So off we go: if your species was potentially being murdered, exploited, enslaved, etc., then are you a mass murderer or are you justifiably defending your species?

Xavier is also a member of a subset of species (mutant) that is being "murdered, exploited, enslaved, etc." and yet he hasn't chosen the path of murder as retribution.  It's what sets the two apart.  It what makes it impossible that Magneto would ever look for a "change of heart" or try to redeem himself, much less become the replacement of Xavier's at his school.  Regardless, I may be able to understand, if not justify, Magneto's actions against a single individual or perhaps a small group, but murder on the scale that he's committed with far too many innocents caught up in his wake is unjustifiable.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Bradley Dean
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 March 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 538
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 6  

Not sure of the writer's intent, but I, for one, could never envision a
scenario in which the White Queen became a card carrying member of the
X-Men.
---------

I actually enjoyed having her switch to hero. She had a major life change
(acoma and the death of a class of her students she had been training for
years) I liked how at the start of Generation X she was a bitchy, witch of a
woman who was working with a new generation of mutants. I had the
feeling she wasn't really sold on the idea of Xaivers dream but she
seamed content to be in her headmistress role again until something
better came along.

When she joined the X-Men and became Cyclops lover, now that is really
stretching it. I do think that she will betray the X-Men and become evil
again.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 7  

Not sure of the writer's intent, but I, for one, could never envision a scenario in which the White Queen became a card carrying member of the X-Men. It's just not in her character. Neither is it in Mystique's. Both characters have to be written radically different, as was Magneto during the time he ran the X-Men, in order for them to work as heroes.

Storywise, the White Queen suffered a near-death experience in one of the X-books, and that wasn't long after her own students, The Hellions, had been killed. She was in the process of re-evaluating her life when Banshee offered her a chance to redeem herself, which led to 75 issues-or-so of her co-teaching Generation X. She'd followed that up with a stint as a teacher in Genosha, where she was at the start of Grant Morrison's X-Men, so it's not as if she turned into a card-carrying superhero overnight.

I haven't read any of her early appearances recently, but don't recall her wantonly murdering anyone (although I'm more than willing to admit that I could be wrong on that count). At this point in the character's history, she's been a mean good guy for about as long as she was a bad guy, and her number of "good guy" appearances far outnumbers the number of "bad guy" appearances.

Sabretooth on the X-Men is a completely different story, though. Professor X usually compares him to Wolverine whenever they try to rehabilitate Sabretooth, since Wolverine was a badass, dangerous, violent guy when he first joined the X-Men. Sabretooth, however, never really wanted to change, killed people for fun or sport whenever it occurred to him, and has attempted to disembowel most of the X-Men (and their students) on multiple occasions, often with the mutant-massacring Marauders.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35946
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 8  

Guys, I know why the White Queen became a member of the X-Men.  I read those stories.  I just don't agree with it because I think it takes a major, unbelievable left turn in a character that has shown for years a propensity for murder, torture, and pain as a means to an end.  I just don't believe the death of her students would make her rethink her entire reason d'etre.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35946
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 9  

 Andrew W. Farago wrote:
...so it's not as if she turned into a card-carrying superhero overnight.

But she did turn into a card-carrying teacher of superheroes overnight via GENERATION X, and was put in situations where she had to be a superhero early in that series.  Not much of a difference if you ask me.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Scott McKeeve
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 November 2007
Posts: 835
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 10  

"Xavier is also a member of a subset of species (mutant) that is being "murdered, exploited, enslaved, etc." and yet he hasn't chosen the path of murder as retribution.  It's what sets the two apart."

Agreed, Matt. But from Magneto's point of view, it's not about peaceful coexistance because Magneto believes this can never happen. And so far history has proven him right. Humanity has never been able to coexist with any other species. Unless you consider genocide or subservience peaceful coexistance. We either eat you or kill you.

Magneto sees this as reality and therefore "it's us or them". If you were a mutant, the appeal of this philosophy makes sense.  

Back to Top profile | search
 
Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | 11  

But she did turn into a card-carrying teacher of superheroes overnight via GENERATION X, and was put in situations where she had to be a superhero early in that series.  Not much of a difference if you ask me.

She'd been depicted as a teacher of mutants from the start, though.  She was trying to recruit Kitty Pryde as a potential student for the Massachussetts Academy in her very first appearance, and was always concerned with teaching the next generation of mutants how to cope with a world that hates and fears them.  The White Queen's most evil actions were usually on behalf of people like Shaw, and were generally directed at the X-Men specifically, and I don't remember her ever doing anything that would fall into the completely 100% unforgiveable category.

Plus, at the end of the White Queen's first storyline in X-Men, Phoenix stomped her very, very thoroughly, nearly killing her in the process (and Phoenix, if I remember correctly, was completely unrepentant about it).  I'd hardly blame Emma Frost for holding a bit of a grudge after that.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Ray Dyas
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1484
Posted: 10 December 2007 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 12  

Once Wolverine basically became the poster child for fanboys for what's cool, that's when everything went to hell.  All the excessive glut of X-related titles over the years to the X-villains that have turned hero are all by products of that. Kill him off or just make him a special agent in SHIELD or something because he no longer has a valid place within the X-Men as far as I'm concerned. Xavier going back and forth from being crippled to walking or being portrayed as a negligent a **hole depending on who's writing the book at the time is another turn off for me. No matter the reasons,this is definitely one title that needs to get back to the bare boned basics of what made it unique.
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 32 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login