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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134709
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 1
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He sank a fully crewed Russian submarine, and caused a volcano to erupt in
the middle of a city. The city was "evacuated", but try to imagine getting
everyone out of New York on short notice, and see how preposterous
that notion really is.
Incidentally -- NOTHING Magneto does is an "act of war". That is utter and
complete bullshit. It's like me coming to your house and killing your family,
and then saying I was justified because you and I are "at war". Only
governments can declare war upon each other. Anything else is murder. In
Magneto's case, mass murder.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4072
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 2
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The X-Men are not real. They are fictional characters. Nothing they do is done because they want to do it. Everything happens because some writer wants it to happen.
Which is why I didn't ask where the X-Men draw the line.
If you're asking what acts each of us, individually, could never forgive someone for, I'd bet that each person here would have completely different answers. I'm sure that none of us would stand for letting Osama bin Laden join the U.S. Air Force, and nobody wants to see Jeffrey Dahmer in charge of a Boy Scout troop, but there are all sorts of crimes in between petty theft and mass murder.
If the White Queen had tried to kill me or personally tortured me, yes, I'd have a hard time writing a recommendation letter to any of her potential employers. If I were one of the X-Men, though, who go up against a different enemy and face life-threatening danger every single week, then I'd say that my life operates under a different set of rules than it does now.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 3
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He sank a fully crewed Russian submarine
******
Didn't they attack him first?
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 4
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Victor, here is how UXM 150 went. Magneto addresses the nations of the world. They are to do away with their nuclear weapons and cede all authority over to him. He intends to create a golden age(in his mind anyway). If they refuse, he's going to destroy them. As an object lesson, he destroys a Russian city, but only after he warns them ahead of time so it can be evacuated. He is clear that the next time there will be no advance warning. Yes, they attacked him, after he held the world hostage.
What about the redemption I spoke of? That was the revealing of his backstory as well as his actions with Kitty at the end of the issue.
Jason, Magneto killed a bunch of people in both Fatal Attractions and one of his limited series, Dark Seduction.
The way I remember it SilverAge villains talked a big game, but the actual body counts never amounted to big numbers. Magneto might try to blow up San Marco, but he never gets away with it. Morrison's
Magneto had that SilverAge mentality, but he actually racked up the body count.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 5
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If you're asking what acts each of us, individually, could never forgive
someone for, I'd bet that each person here would have completely different
answers.
••
Which is why I asked. . . .
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 6
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He sank a fully crewed Russian submarine
******
Didn't they attack him first?
••
Yes -- they attacked a SUPER VILLAIN. One with a SELF-DECLARED AGENDA
TO ENSLAVE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 7
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Victor, here is how UXM 150 went. Magneto addresses the nations of the world. They are to do away with their nuclear weapons and cede all authority over to him. He intends to create a golden age(in his mind anyway). If they refuse, he's going to destroy them. As an object lesson, he destroys a Russian city, but only after he warns them ahead of time so it can be evacuated. He is clear that the next time there will be no advance warning. Yes, they attacked him, after he held the world hostage.
******
I read the issue and im not disputing it. Its just when a naval submarine attacks you and you kill the entire crew. Its not exactly like killing an innocent. They became part of the game. He had not actively attacked civilians at this point. He attacked an empty city. But he gave warning first.
It gave Magneto enough wiggle room to declare self defense.
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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I don't know, seems pretty flimsy to me. Magneto created the situation. It's more than just verbal posturing. He has actually destroyed a city and promised that next time he'll give no advance warning.
If I hold a couple people hostage, demand a million dollars ransom, and kill some police officer who shot at me first, can I plead self defense? I'm not a lawyer{although I have a brother who is), maybe I can in a legal sense, but in any sympathetic sense? I created the situation by my behavior. I provoked a situation where killing me can be at least somewhat justified because of what I'm threatening to do.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 13 December 2007 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 9
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Its not self defense. But Magneto had just that much wiggle room. Magneto had not yet attacked innocents directly. He said he would not if his demands were met.
If I remember the story right. The other nations had told the commies not to attack Magneto til they decided on a course of action. At least until they could get ahold of the Avengers. But the Russians out of fear of superhumans wanted to take out Magneto themselves and escalated the conflict.
Magneto's position would be if they had not attacked him, they would not be dead.
Thats not to say he is right. But the story definately painted the commies in a negative light, with the position they had it coming.
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:39am | IP Logged | 10
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OK. I remembered the volcano in Varykino but supposedly no lives were lost from that. I wasn't sure -- I haven't read UXM #150 in, oh, 20 years.
So there were no recorded killings by Magneto until UXM #150. That's what I thought.
Interesting that the killings occur in the same issue where Magneto suddenly starts feeling remorse for his actions after attacking Kitty Pryde. I guess Claremont didn't think that one through too well.
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Victor Rodgers
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 11
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I think it was intentional. He wanted to show Magneto going further than he ever had before. That way when he hurt Kitty and felt remorse it would mean more. Or thats the way I read it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 12
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I read the issue and im not disputing it. Its just when a naval submarine
attacks you and you kill the entire crew. Its not exactly like killing an
innocent. They became part of the game. He had not actively attacked
civilians at this point. He attacked an empty city. But he gave warning
first.
••
Let's try for another real world scenario, shall we? You're a cop walking
your beat. Coming down the busy street toward you, you see a guy who
has sent several videotapes to the Mayor, announcing that he intends to
start shooting people. You notice that the guy is carrying a couple of
assault rifles and a bazooka.
Do you have to wait for him to start using them before you take action?
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Topic Closed)
