Author |
|
Flavio Sapha Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Brazil Posts: 12912
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:11am | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
who Magneto has killed? +++
It is worth picking up the X-Men vs. Avengers mini-series, in which Roger Stern very sensibly makes the case against Magneto´s rehabilitation.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Greg Reeves Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 06 February 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1396
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
See, I think that you (JB) are among the best creators ever to add depth and layers to the characters you write, but here you write that they never should change! :-) (By the way, when I write "keeping a character exactly the same," I mean not adding layers and depth. I completely agree with you that creators need to respect the boundaries of previous creators, but it's okay to add some dimension to the mythos. I don't think Magneto should EVER be a "hero", but I don't think it's a good idea that every time Magneto shows up, he should say the same things and try the same things).
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12735
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Depth and layers can be found without change, Greg. Look at what JB did on
the FF - he fully realized those characters without changing anything
essential about them.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134007
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
It is the Illusion of change that is important, not real change. When
Reed and Sue got married, that seemed like a change, but it really
wasn't. The dynamics within the group remained the same. Over the
years, when Peter Parker drifted away from various girlfriends -- Liz,
Betty -- it seemed like a change, but it wasn't. The dynamics within
the book remained the same.
But when Gwen Stacy died, that was a real change, and the repercussions
are still being felt. When Phoenix died, ditto. When Parker and MJ
married, ditto.
For several decades the writers and editors understood that to keep these
characters popular, they had to keep them "on model". A reader had to
know what to expect, up to a point, every issue. It needed to feel
familiar. And, at the moment it stopped feeling familiar and started
feeling stale, that reader was expected to move on to other interests,
and new readers to come in to take his place.
What we have done in this industry is deliberately and relentlessly close
ourselves off to new readers, make the books increasingly
comprehensible only to those who have been reading far longer than they
should have, and replace the writers and editors who understood how it
worked all those years with aging fans who, instead of moving on, have
moved in, and started pushing the books and characters ever further
and further away from the strong, basic foundations that made them
work.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
QUOTE:
The difference between the two is that Doom ultimately beliefs and acts for himself. Magneto, I believe, would sacrifice himself if it meant the liberation of his people. |
|
|
I see it the other way around. Doom rules his people with an iron hand but he doesn't oppress them. He really does care for his country. Also, Doom learned the dark arts to free his mother from the Netherworld (at least that's what I remember). The price he paid for her freedom was her eternal scorn. Doesn't seem to me as if Doom does everything strictly for his own agenda.
Magneto, on the other hand, judging from his earlier appearnances, is seeking total dominion. He's seeks other mutants in his cause but he won't brook insubordination. He's acting as the aggressor, not as part of some rebellion. His appearance preceded the Sentinels, which were part of the first concerted effort program to round up mutants. His very character suggested he's just not a nice guy. Then he seemed to go from being a raving megalomaniac to a genteel pacifist without any adequate explanation or logical progression.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 11 December 2007 at 8:26am
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
The books becomes all shades of grey -- and pretty muddy grey at that!
That sounds like a perfect description for most of today's books. Rather than focus on true heroism (which is apparently uninteresting), anti-heroes run around acting inconsistent, based on the needs of a given plot.
Sigh.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 27 June 2006 Posts: 3882
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Well imo, I like that some of the characters are assholes. I just feel that a balance is lost. It's disconcerting when you're meant to feel someone's done something horrible when it hardly compares to the things the offended characters regularly do. That could just be me. I guess it seems alot of fans root for asshole characters that I can't possibly understand why.
I liked that Scott and Emma were such pussies in Grant's run. I was surprised most readers thought they were awesome. So it annoys me they're trusted into your face as the epitome of kewl every possible chance editorial gets. They fucking solve all storylines in all the X-Books.
If you want shades of grey, at least allow other types of characters to succeed from time to time. It's a god damn team book. You should show that there's more than one way to accomplish things. I can understand that characters full of themselves like Wolverine or Emma can act like the moral compass of the books while being assholes. But at least have some characters telling them to get screwed.
And I don't feel it's exclusive to the x-books. A lot of comics seem to root for the same archetypes and personalities.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134007
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Magneto, I believe, would sacrifice himself if it meant the liberation of his
people.
••
The Magneto who has been known to leave live atomic bombs to cover his
escape?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 27 June 2006 Posts: 3882
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
QUOTE:
Doom rules his people with an iron hand but he doesn't oppress them. He really does care for his country. |
|
|
Sure, with terror, as ginea pigs! Didn't he keep the Avengers captive while a Latverian kid needed outside medical help? He was ready to kill them all in early Fantastic Four issues as well when he tested out his killing machines on his own town. It's not just that I'm a giant nerd, I've just read Essential Avengers last year.
Boo! Hiss!
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Gerry Turnbull Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 8766
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 27 June 2006 Posts: 3882
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
QUOTE:
A few decades back, Roger Stern offered this very wise observation, as to the success of the X-Men. Comic fans as a species tend to view themselves as "outsiders", as do fans of most things. |
|
|
The reason I liked Chris' run is that it was constantly changing from one thing to another. So I enjoyed wondering what had happen between chunks of issues I had. On the other hand, a lot of books kept going back to status quo so I saw no reason to buy them regularly since nothing ever changed.
BTW I thought sales had seriously dropped on those books. They're not top dog anymore.
Edited by Martin Redmond on 11 December 2007 at 10:15am
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Gene Best Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 24 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4598
|
Posted: 11 December 2007 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Whether I left the X-Men or they left me, I'm uncertain ...
I was in college until '85, and married with child by '90. As a student, I was a pretty easy audience, and enjoyed most of what I read.
However, by the time I had a full-time job and a family to support, the X-books felt convoluted and difficult to follow. I felt like I had to remember too many things and follow too many threads in too many different books ... the books became more work than fun.
I prefer to call it a mutual break-up and just remember the fun times we had.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|