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Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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<<he.. dies, his soul goes to a place where he has to fight a character named Lazear. If he wins, goes back to his fully-healed body>>
Or rather - he defeats the end of level guardian and gains another life. How very modern.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 2
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QUOTE:
| I actually like the idea of the natural claws. I don't see any real
reason why he SHOULDN'T have natural claws. It makes a bit of sense,
since he has other animalistic features. |
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Well, they're pretty lame, for one thing (what super-baddy is going to find him threatening with his silly breakable bone spikes)? For another, the claws are just too mechanical to have developed naturally.
QUOTE:
| With the exception of the one
sceen where JB drew his skeleton having the mechanical parts in an
(alternate?) future death sceen, there is nothing really contradicted
by that. |
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And why should that example, even if it's just one, be discounted? Anyway, it's beside the main point, which is that the bone claws don't make any sense.
QUOTE:
| For years everyone TALKED about his claws being implanted, but
we never SAW them being implanted. They talked about it that way
because they were starting from a misconception. I really don't see
that as being that big of a deal. |
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It only became a misconception after the fact. And it's a bigger deal than it may seem. The claws were always something that were inflicted upon him and compromised his humanity. That all went out the window when they went and made him an aberration.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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When I was working on WONDER WOMAN, I noticed something slithering around the halls up at DC. Various writers, since the "death" of Superman, had developed a habit of using Doomsday as the benchmark for the power levels of the characters they were writing. "He's Doomsday level power!" they would say, and I would respond "You mean he's tough enough to kill Superman? Then why are we even reading about Superman?"This becomes all about the characters serving the writer's ego. The writer wants his character to be the meanest mutha in the valley, despite how disturbing this is to the "balance of power" within a "universe". Me, I actually like working with weaker characters -- the Invisible Girl springs to mind -- and finding ways to make them "tougher" without actually making them tougher. Usually by just making them a bit more clever!
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| I just don't see Wolverine as being this top fighter in terms of skill.
He doesn't need to be. He has a metal skeleton, claws and a healing
factor. He knows going into a fight there is very little that can
actually do lasting damage to him. It may hurt, a lot. However, he's
like a boxer that can take punishment. He may not be able to
out-finesse his opponent, but he can outlast him. And, that makes him a
bit reckless. He's strong and willing to take some pain to get in
close. |
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All fine and good. However, it doesn't address the fact that Wolverine seems to often get beaten, and badly injured or mutilated in the process.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
| Me, I actually like working with weaker
characters -- the Invisible Girl springs to mind -- and finding ways to
make them "tougher" without actually making them tougher. Usually by just making them a bit more clever! |
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Agreed; it's always better to see characters using their wits rather than bash their way out of a situation.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 15 October 2007 at 8:23pm
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 6
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On a similar tangent, I like when videogames offer you to use crappy characters at higher difficulty settings. Some abilities (powers) are really an advantage. It becomes a matter of how good you are at using them. Of course, using crap weapons can take forever against a boss with tons of health but you still got the geek pride of knowing you can do it regardless. There's one game I played where alot of the unlockables were worse than the starting characters. So you had to work hard for lousy characters but since you've become skilled enough by the time you got them their crappiness doesn't matter.
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 7
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I only occasionally flipped through the X-Men titles during the 1990s. But I was under the impression that the "bone-claw" Wolverine turned out to be a Skrull. Not so? Bummer. I thought the bone claws were very, very stupid.
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Ron Chevrier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1641
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 8
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Comparing chracters power levels to Doomsday doesn't necessarily mean
that they are more powerful than Superman. If they were, why even
bother with attacking Superman directly? Just fly up behind the moon
and give it a shove earthward. That ought to give him something to
think about.
Doomsday came along at a time when Superman's powers were still
developing. His invulnerability had not yet reached the incredible
levels that his strength had.Thus, a blow from a sufficiently powerful
opponent such as Doomsday could put him in a death-like state. We
can assume that his invulnerability has since been amped up
considerably, as has his strength, since he has managed to go toe-to
toe with Doomsday on subsequent occasions whilst suffering only minor
injuries.
So too, we can asume that Doomsday's ability to resist damage during
their first encounter was probably greater than Superman's, as he
shrugged off most of the Man of Stee's mightiest blows.
Just because a character is "Doomsday-level" in power, it doesn't
necessarily mean that they can easily best Superman. I daresay that on
their best day and his worst, they might be able to hit him harder than
his ability to resist a blow, but that doesn't make them the baddest
cat on the block.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14857
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| Posted: 15 October 2007 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 9
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Doomsday came along at a time when Superman's powers were still
developing. His invulnerability had not yet reached the incredible levels
that his strength had.Thus, a blow from a sufficiently powerful opponent
such as Doomsday could put him in a death-like state. We can assume
that his invulnerability has since been amped up considerably, as has his
strength, since he has managed to go toe-to toe with Doomsday on
subsequent occasions whilst suffering only minor injuries.
----
From all the subsequent matchups that I recall, Superman could not
defeat Doomsday in a physical battle. In Hunter/Prey, Doomsday pretty
much kicked Superman's ass again and Superman had to resort to
teleporting Doomsday in the end of time. The next miniseries, the title of
which I can not recall, Superman had to trap Doomsday in the JLA
teleporters. After Doomsday was killed by Imperiex in Our Worlds at War,
I think he came back as a weaker clone and then the Joker venom made
him intelligent or something weird like that, so I don't think Superman
ever has been shown to match Doomsday physically at his peak (without
dying).
Edited by Michael Roberts on 15 October 2007 at 10:14pm
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Ron Chevrier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1641
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 10
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Some time after the Imperiex War, Superman met Doomsday again. The
creature was now semi-intelligent, as you state. When they faced off,
Superman pretty much stopped his attack and gave him that Doomsday
would never be able to injure him as he had in the past. It was implied
that Superman was now a lot tougher than he was previously, since he
stopped Doomsday's blows by catching them in his hands. Also, because
Doomsday was now intelligent, he apparently had the fear of dying or
something that wouldn't make him as reckless and unstoppable as he had
been when he debuted.
This is not to say that Doomsday couldn't give Superman a run for his
money. I just don't think the monster could make a chump out of him as
easily as he had during their first encounter.
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Roque Martinez
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 292
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 1:48am | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
| I only occasionally flipped through the X-Men titles during the 1990s.
But I was under the impression that the "bone-claw" Wolverine turned
out to be a Skrull. Not so? |
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No, but there was indeed a skrull who was impersonating Wolverine while the real one was getting the adamantium back courtesy of Apocalypse.
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Jason Powell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 429
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| Posted: 16 October 2007 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 12
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"But if the same story had opened with the mystic M'Krap Comet being
seen drifting lazily thru space and then (lucky really) happening by just in
time to give Logan's healing factor a boost that allows him to survive
being punched into orbit, it's deus ex machina time."
In that scenario, it IS just luck/"deus ex machina". But in the story under
discussion, the X-Men were searching specifically for that crystal, so it
isn't just luck that Wolverine was near it for the climax of the story. "Deux
ex machina" implies to me that Claremont had written himself into a
corner by having Wolverine's heart ripped out, and needed something to
save him so he pulled the crystal out of nowhere. But the crystal's power
was the point -- if anything, Claremont probably deliberately had
something horrible happen to Wolverine specifically so he could do the
"single drop of blood" bit.
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Topic Closed)
