Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 17 Next >>
Topic: JB at what specific incident did you stop liking Wolverine? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7789
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 1  

As far as I can remember, at the time Weapon X was serialized in Marvel Comics presents a lot of the press was talking about how the claws were organic and had been replaced by adamantium.. It certainly was not a shock to me when they were shown as organic in Origin.

I think most of it stemmed from the scene in ish 72 (The prologue) when he has the dream / propecy about 'pain an' bones an spikes.... Dagger hands' while you also see a panel with claws coming from hands.

Also, I thought the whole thing as to why he needed his healing factor to survive the adamantium implant was that he had lost a lot of his bone marrow. Low bone marrow = low red blood cell reproduction (At normal rate) = death. I may be wrong here though.

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 2  


 QUOTE:
t certainly was not a shock to me when they were shown as organic in Origin.

They were shown to be organic far earlier than that.  Around '94 or '95, if I'm not mistaken.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31185
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 3  

Whenever Magneto pulled the adamantium from him is when it was revealed the claws were also bone.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 4  

I thought the whole thing as to why he needed his healing factor to survive the adamantium implant was that he had lost a lot of his bone marrow. Low bone marrow = low red blood cell reproduction (At normal rate) = death. I may be wrong here though.

••

You may have noticed there was a point at which Chris began refering to Wolverine's bones as "laced" with adamantium. This was after I showed his pure adamantium (and clearly machined) bones in "Days of Future Past".

Apparently, somebody told Shooter about red blood cells, and he started leaning on us about how Wolverine's bones could not be adamantium, or he'd die. Blah blah blah. I argued that the healing factor -- which, as I noted further upthread, was his mutation back then -- was what made the implanting of adamantium bones possible. The massive amount of surgery alone would have killed a man without that ace in the hole.

I fought off Shooter's intrusions, but Chris evidentally decided it wasn't worth the effort. Or maybe Shooter stepped up the crusade. I was gone, and no longer cared. I did note at the time that adamantium "laced" bones would really not do you a whole lot of good along the lines of surviving being punched into orbit. I suppose we were to imagine his bones healing inside their cocoon of adamantium? Snag there, of course, was that as originally portrayed the healing factor was not instantaneous. Wolverine could recover from almost -- almost -- any injury, but it would take time. Sometimes a lot of time.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

I read the bespectacled doctor's comments in BWS' story to mean that knives were a misnomer because they are surgical and precise.  Their subject, Weapon X, was nothing of the sort.  He was an animal, and the weapon they had given him was suitably animalistic. I read his point as one of pride and semantics, not a set-up for a plot point years in the future. 

I believed at the time I read the story that they had devised the retractable claw devices to implant into his body because they "fit" his beserker nature. His healing ability would allow him to survive such a drastic, horribly invasive procedure, and live with it later.  They are bad, bad people, devising instruments of torture, disembowelment, and murder that injure even the agent who wields them every time they are employed because they can do so and can justify it budgetarily and even patriotically if they have to.

Are we to believe that Lady Deathstrike had an organic precursor to her adamantium finger extensions?  Did all of the subjects of the Weapon X program have handy pre-existing conditions that could be easily adapted to meet the needs of the program?

The scientists of the Weapon X program are more horrible individuals if they came up the claws.  Of course, I still recall the spring devices clearly shown in the skeleton of the charred Wolverine from "Days of Future Past."

Here's a bit of fun: Since the earlier story is Clearly Wrong, let's explain how it could still have happened that way, Knowing What We Know Now. 1.) Wolverine's tendons at some point in our future, their past, became so terribly injured that a cybernetic "helper" had to be implanted.  The thematic similarities to erectile dysfunction will be both poignant and funny.  2.) The fact that this Wolverine had machine-operated claws is a clear sign that the "Days" future was never ours to begin with, but a separate universe and timeline altogether!  Probably one of millions...  3.) That wasn't Wolverine.  See?  It was a robot.  He tricked them dirty Sentinels with a robot... which means he's still out there... Hsss...

C'mon, everyone!  Play along!  The extrapolation is simple and best of all, you're not having to actually write anything!  The work is already done for you!

 



Edited by Brian Hague on 07 October 2007 at 7:12pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 6  


 QUOTE:
I read the bespectacled doctor's comments in BWS' story to mean that knives were a misnomer because they are surgical and precise.  Their subject, Weapon X, was nothing of the sort.  He was an animal, and the weapon they had given him was suitably animalistic. I read his point as one of pride and semantics, not a set-up for a plot point years in the future.

I disagree.  Also, many appearances prior to WX actually did show his claws as being rather surgical and precise (or else how would he neatly slice and dice so many things?)  And why would they implant imprecise weapons when precise weapons would be better?  It was only a few years later, anyway; 4 or 5 years.

Of course, if I'm right, Marvel was counting on readers not picking up the clues, so I guess it did its job.


 QUOTE:
I believed at the time I read the story that they had devised the retractable claw devices to implant into his body because they "fit" his beserker nature. His healing ability would allow him to survive such a drastic, horribly invasive procedure, and live with it later.  They are bad, bad people, devising instruments of torture, disembowelment, and murder that injure even the agent who wields them every time they are employed because they can do so and can justify it budgetarily and even patriotically if they have to.

But there's no indication of fitting or surgery.  Just a "feed" of adamantium to his bones.



Edited by Paulo Pereira on 07 October 2007 at 8:47pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 7  

Did a search on more info on the bone claws (btw, when did Spider-Man have bone claws??) and found this interesting bit.  Turns out Peter David jokingly inspired the idea to have Magneto remove the metal from Wolverine's skeleton:


 QUOTE:
Actually, what happened was that we were all discussing how we were going to have Magneto’s return be a big deal. The other writers were bouncing around the notion of a huge Magneto/Wolverine slugfest and I said, thinking out loud, “Boy, y’know, if I’m Magneto, I don’t even bother with Wolverine. I just yank out his skeleton and be done with him.” And there was dead silence for a moment, and then everyone looked at me and said, “That’s a great idea.”

And I said, “No, it’s not.”

And they said, “Yeah! It’ll be a great visual!”

I said, “Well, sure, but then he’s dead. He can’t survive having his entire skeleton ripped out.”

“He has a healing factor!”

“Healing factor?! If you rip out his whole skeleton, he’s a pile of flesh on the floor! He’ll be a healed pile of flesh! What’ll he do? Ooze at people?!”

See, my vision of it was that Magneto ripped out the entire skeleton, not just excises the adamantium that was laced into it. Figures that my biggest contribution to X-continuity was simply voicing a passing thought.

PAD

Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 8  

Paulo, the blades obviously could be mistaken for knives, given their shape (flat blades usually, as of Miller and Claremont's Wolverine 1.)  As I read it, the doctor was insisting on the term "claws" to more accurately describe the uses to which he intended their pet berserker to put them.  There would be more effective ways to hint at pre-existing bone claws than this.  Of course, BWS is the fellow who wrote the line, "Now I've bollixed both our paddles," so who knows...?

The feed of adamantium would be necessary in either case, to "lace" his skeleton with the metal.  I don't have a copy of the book here, but is there really no indication of surgery in the story of creating a cyborg skeleton for Wolverine?  I thought that was the whole point of the Weapon X subplot for all of these years, that Wolverine had been operated on, countless times, turned into a killing machine by a persons or governments unknown, yadda yadda... No surgery? At all? Really? Just that one procedure? Okay...

In any case, I read the story with the existing preconceptions in mind about Wolverine's spring-loaded devices from X-Men 142.  I suppose I may have naively believed Weapon X was designed to fit with what had already been established, rather than ignore it in favor of laying tenuous groundwork for a revelation no one else seemed to know about.  Could be.

 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Mike Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 530
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | 9  

"I suppose I may have naively believed Weapon X was designed to fit with what had already been established, rather than ignore it in favor of laying tenuous groundwork for a revelation no one else seemed to know about.  Could be."

This was a point of contention as the story was coming out; in an interview (I think it was in WIZARD) Barry Windsor-Smith said that he hadn't consulted with anyone in the X-office while creating the "Weapon X" story for MCP, and in a letter column someone asked about that and the response from Marvel editorial was that they couldn't control what Mister Windsor-Smith said in interviews, but that the story had been ok'd by editorial.

Personally my feeling on reading those pages way back then was that the implication was that there were bone claws, but that they were a surprise to Professor Cornelius. I haven't read it in a long time but I remember that they had begun a process which was not really like a surgery but more like they were just pumping the metal into him, via tubes that were inserted at various points, and that the metal was bonding with the bones inside him. Then there's a surprise that it's taking more metal than they expected due specifically to his arms or wrists.

The only problem with this, and it bothered me at the time, was that you would think Logan would have been x-rayed, not only before the procedure but during his time as a government agent, and the claws would have been evident. Then again, maybe they just looked like a deformity and no attempt to remove them was made because they weren't affecting his health or mobility and they weren't attracting attention because they were hidden.

When they later revealed the bone claws I felt it had been set up in the "Weapon X" story and wondered if that had been the inspiration.


Edited by Mike Murray on 07 October 2007 at 10:22pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Monte Gruhlke
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
Posted: 07 October 2007 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | 10  

I never agreed with the bone claws direction. It had been established before that they were pneumatic weapons forced into him by unscrupulous scientists who were giddy to have a perpetually regenerating subject at their disposal. When Magneto tore the metal out of him, Wolverine should have only been left with only his healing (and I guess his heightened senses as well). Perhaps at that point, he could have taken up a sword for a weapon or something... I don't know. But bony claws? I'll pass.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
Posted: 08 October 2007 at 2:20am | IP Logged | 11  

Geek Mode: Say Wolverine did have a 100% adamantium skeleton and Magneto removed it. Wouldn't he at that point be boneless? And would his healing factor kick in a grow his skeleton back? I wonder if this "version" of Wolverine was in constant pain as his healing factor was always trying to replace the metal with bone. Might explan his surly attitude. End Geek Mode

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
Posted: 08 October 2007 at 4:17am | IP Logged | 12  

Claremont wrote it as if Logan's claws and skeleton were adamntium or the skeleton was laced with adamantium. The claws were always forged from the metal though.

I don't think BWS meant for the claws to be organic, it was just the way he prefered to call the implants claws, pointing that Logan was an animal, under their control.

The whole organic claw thing was completely contradictory to everything we knew so far. The only thing I could have seen as possible explanation was that the body had "learned" the claws and considered them a part of it, thus producing claws to replace the implants. Then, they went and showed us Logan with claws from the begining, making everything stupid.

Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 17 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login