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Greg Reeves
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 1  

Thinking more on the subject, I just wanted to add a couple things.  Matt, I didn't want my statement to be harsh like that; about the Vader pics, yes, I chose modern versions due to the aforementioned limitations of older comics.  We've had 30 years of exposure to Vader that it's clear what colors or lack thereof he should be portrayed with.  Much like Vader, Storm also has some sort of black leathery and shiny material.  Therefore, the highlights on them in real life or in comics should be white like the pics I posted, or in a colored light appropriate to the lighting source.  But the discussion mostly started because of Cyclops.  If you take 99% of any of the images produced of Cyclops over the decades and ask any human being unfamiliar with the traditions of comics coloring what color his outfit is, I guarantee you they'll say blue.  Hell, I've been reading comics for almost 30 years and I was shocked to read that some of you say his outfit is black!  People will see the color present in the highlights (many times the highlights cover more surface area than the black shadow does, so perhaps highlight is not the correct term) as the fabric color, and they're not wrong!  The color they see is blue, but you have to explain to them why it's not blue?  If you have to explain to them anything, then perhaps they are not the delusional ones :-).  I refuse to believe that every action figure and statue produced of Cyclops is wrong (that bust JB posted is the only time I've seen a black outfit on Cyclops, and it looked so wrong to me!).  Now I'm not saying that any of the artists who drew Cyclops or any other of the supposed black-costumed heroes didn't think the outfits were black, but for whatever reason, the color given stuck and the general public and many comics fans will claim blue if asked.

If there is any color or non-color that exists in one shade only, it's black.  You can of course have dark grey, dark blue, dark whatever, but there is only one black.  So who truly wears black?  Here's a small list I came up with, please agree or disagree as you wish; furthermore, there are undoubtedly examples of which blue was used to highlight these outfits, but they would have to be due to true blue lighting or artistic license that is contradictory to real life.

Black: Storm's punk outfit, Doctor Strange's leggings, Nightcrawler's body suit, Longshot, Havok, JB's Master, New Mutants uniforms, Darkstar

Dark blue: JB's FF uniforms, Nightcrawler's skin, Hawkeye, Beast, Thor, Cloak, Power Man's pants

Dark Grey: Black Panther (was once dark blue though), Hobgoblin, Mockingbird, Puck

Sometimes portrayed as dark blue, sometimes black: Punisher, Spider-Man's alien outfit

Here's an example of Cyclops vs. Havok, a dark blue vs. black outfit:

And another black outfit:

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 2  

In this specific picture, Cyclops couldn't blast her because It appears that
Storm had intentionally forced Cyclops' arm over his visor, thereby
preventing him from blasting Storm without shooting his own arm off.

---

Cyclops can't shoot his own arm off for the same reason his eyelids don't
burst open when his eyes are closed.
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Corey Morgan
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | 3  

Then I guess he didn't fire through his arm because he didn't want to ruin his gloves.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | 4  

If there is any color or non-color that exists in one shade only, it's black.

---

I thought it was a non-color that has multiple shades.
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Greg Reeves
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 5  


 QUOTE:
I thought it was a non-color that has multiple shades.

No, I meant a non-color because black absorbs all light and doesn't reflect any color.  An outfit like Cyclops' is blue because blue is the only color reflected when light hits the fabric.  (In a way, one could say that something is every color BUT the one reflected off, but that's another discussion!)

By the way, from my list up there, I would say that those listed as dark grey COULD have black outfits since dark grey is a lighter shade of black and the lighting conditions are just right.  But the main point is that black never highlights as blue unless it's a coloring mistake/tradition, or the light is a colored blue source.

Lastly, I would just ignore Stan, but the comment about a discussion being a crusade against JB is ridiculous.  Discussion forums are for fun, even if there is a respectful disagreement about something.  Try not being a yes-man all the time, Stan; I swear JB could ask you to become a criminal and you'd do it (not that you'd ask that, JB :-P)

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Josh Smith
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 6  

What color is Angel's red uniform? I think you all are saying it's black and that's cool but why's it got red in it?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 7  

No, I meant a non-color because black absorbs all light and doesn't
reflect any color.

---

In theory, that is what black is. In terms of real-world pigments, there is
some light reflected, and you have blacks that are "blacker" than other
blacks. That's why my Epson printer has Photo Black, Matte Black, Light
Black, and Light Light Black. (Or because Epson likes money.)

Buy two pairs of black jeans and run one through the wash a few times.
It's not accurate to call the washed ones "dark grey". They're still black. In
some of the examples above, the blue highlights just look like a
convention to indicate a different shade of black from a more "pure"
black.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 8  

What color is Angel's red uniform? I think you all are saying it's black and that's cool but why's it got red in it?

•••

Ah, now this is where it gets weird. Comics, as noted, are full of colors not found in Nature. The Angel's red costume is --- red. But his "blue" costume is black. (A quick glance at Neal Adams' original design confirms this. Or does anyone really believe Nea intended the Angel to be wearing blue leather boots?)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | 9  

Here's an example of Cyclops vs. Havok, a dark blue vs. black outfit:

•••

No, a shiny black vs a non-reflective black.

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Kevin Hanson
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 10  

So, Spandex then?
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Glenn Brown
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 11  

I think at least some of the confusion stems from artists who either don't know how or don't take the time to properly render the highlights and reflected light upon the planes of the costumed body.

They either leave wide swatches of material open for color...so that the viewer sees large areas of blue, or red, or whatever and naturally assumes that to be the costume's color...or they render the forms incorrectly so that the lighting is random and not grounded in reality.

Many cartoonists learn from looking at other artists, not from life...so their work is a bastardized, stylized hodgepodge of techniques rather than solid fundamental drawing ability.  Hence, the viewer often is confused over exactly what he's supposed to be seeing.

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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 21 September 2007 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 12  

Those real world examples of shiny blacks were great!  This debate/discussion has come up so many times and this is the first time I ever felt like anything got cleared up!  Very interesting!

Thanks!

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