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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 1  

"There's an old saying, in England. 'You take the King's shilling, you do the
King's bidding.' In professional relationships, this is called 'honoring the
agreement'.

***

Sure, when a deal is made, you are bond to go by the rules of the deal.

But when the tradition is bad, change the tradition."

****

Again, speaking to the general concept, not the specifics: if the tradition is bad, change the tradition...going forward, not retroactively.  Or excercise your perogative to not participate in a tradition that you don't agree with.  But don't voluntarily agree to participate beforehand, and then complain about it afterwards.

I know a dude who sold his house a few years ago, and he was very vocal about his displeasure in having to pay the realtor her commission: "She didn't do anything.  The house sold itself!"  This has boggled my mind ever since.  He went to herHe solicited her to perform this professional service for him at a price agreed upon in advance, to be paid only upon successful completion.  The realtor did exactly what the man hired her to do and he begrudged her her commission even though he hired her to do this specific job for a percentage agreed upon in advance.  "She didn't do anything.  The house sold itself!"

Of course, I bit my tongue, but I wanted to ask, "So, then, why did you do this woman this great big favor?  Why didn't you just put it up For Sale By Owner?"  I know a few people who've gone that route.  After enough time and enough frustration, they tend to turn to professional realtors.

But this is one of those memories that will stay with me for a very long time.  How can a man go out and hire someone to do a very specific job for a very specific fee, then after he gets everything that he asked for and agreed on in the first place, turn around and complain?

I'm certainly no mind reader nor a mental health professional, but in the case of the situation I just described I would offer the following speculation: I think that when someone literally doesn't understand another person's job, they literally can not appreciate it, and that's when they end up begrudging them their income...

...or maybe the guy in my example is just a grumpy old man who sees no problem in agreeing on one set of terms before someone does a job for him, then complaining about it after he's gotten everything he's asked for.

Who knows?

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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 2  

Nice story but Kirby, as a creator, is closer to the man building the house
than the seller.

As a matter of fact, where did I write : "change the tradition retroactively" ?
I was not implying to back off from a written contract too.

Next to copyrights or legal matters, such things like, moral or ethic exist
and help us living together in society.

Edited by Pascal LISE on 16 September 2007 at 5:10pm
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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 3  

Again, speaking generally: guys who build houses are also bound by the agreements they make (or should be).  So are the guys who paint them, and cut the lawn, and deliver newspapers to them.  Pretty much everyone should be.*

It is moral and ethical to abide by an agreement that one has entered into voluntarily, and knowingly.

*Except me, of course.  I'm special.  Just ask my mommy.

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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 4  

You mean like in : it would be moral and ethical for you to make
millions out of the work of a guy that you would pay a couple of bucks in
exchange ?

Legal, probably, but ethical ?

Right or wrong, I'm speaking specifically here. No hiding.
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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 5  

Specifically: Yes.  If that's what we both agreed upon going in.
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Josh Goldberg
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 6  

Let's say both of my arms have been amputated.  I go to Las Vegas, I want to play the slot machines, but obviously, I can't do it myself.  So I hire a guy to do it for me.  I agree to pay him $10 an hour for 10 hours, and provide all the quarters he needs to feed the machine.

During the course of this job, he hits a $1,000,000 jackpot.

How much money do I owe him at the end of the day?

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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 7  

Well, if you believe that legal = ethical, It's very informative.

Bedtime now, cu next time.
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Dan Burke
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | 8  

the concept that Stan Lee made these decisions to hurt Kirby is laughable.  If you rean his autpbiography or see interviews with him, it is obvious that he had little or no involvement with corporate decisions.  By the time Goodman sold the company, all those decisions were very far removed from him.

Don't be fooled about press releases from the 90's that said Stan Lee (and Stan Lee Media) was worth $250 million... that company had no real assets... it raised all their money from an IPO.  They were bankrupt within a couple years and the co-founder is under indictment for securities fraud.  He fled the country and would be arrested if he came back to the USA.

I (embarassingly) make $49,000/year working for NatCity Investments in Cleveland.  Since my role is all revenue based, I know for a fact how much I make for the firm.  Based on what product I sell a client and how much they invest, the firm receives a concession.  My point being, last year I generated $670,000 in revenue for my company... my salary stayed about the same... I did get a 12% raise for 2007.

Unless I start my own investment firm, which is nearly impossible, I have to accept these employment contracts and hope they are fair to me when we renegotiate each year.

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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 16 September 2007 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | 9  

Not to take away from the Kirby discussion, but...

And yet we get Warren Ellis and good old Grant Morrison producing work that is heralded as a "return" to Silver Age story-telling

Warren Ellis doing "Silver Age story-telling"? Who the hell said that?

Morrison's obviously influenced by the wackyness of old Bob Haney and Bob Khanigher stories for DC. He's "Silver Age" in a sense. But Ellis? Hardly.
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Kor Watkins
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 10  

I would hardly classify Warren Ellis, and certainly not Grant Morrison, as writing in a Silver-Age style.

If you're looking for Silver-Age story-telling, go buy Big Bang Comics!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 11  

Better to buy SHOWCASE.
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Bruce Buchanan
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Posted: 17 September 2007 at 7:05am | IP Logged | 12  

I realize the thread has drifted from the original question, but I'm a couple of days behind....

I loved the 1963 comics and found them to be a clever, loving homage to Silver Age Marvel. As is typical of Alan Moore's work, the genius is in the details - the "Stan's Soapbox"-style column, the ads for the "Genuine Nuclear Submarine," etc.

I found all of these bins in a quarter box a couple of years back. I enjoyed them so much I bought a second set for a buddy of mine.

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