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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 19 September 2007 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | 1
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And then there was his calling attention to all the sillier aspects while deconstructing them by turning silly foes deadly
How is that "deconstruction"? Bizarro, Prankster and Toyman turning deadly had a purpose to it: "this is the beginning of the end." I thought the scene with Bizarro -- "Hello, Superman, Hello" -- was particularly great.
I said it was a love-letter to the Weisinger years, not an imitation or an echo of them. Moore didn't particularly want Superman to be rebooted. He liked all the old Silver Age "barnacles." So why be surprised that his "last Superman story" is so sad and tragic?
I do agree with you about Superman #400, which is a great, great comic.
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Peter Svensson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1470
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Posted: 19 September 2007 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 2
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Alan Moore shows his respect for the comics he read as a youth in a very different way than John Byrne would, or than Frank Miller would. That it is different does not make it invalid.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 20 September 2007 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 3
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"Showing respect" in much the same way the guy driving the wrecking ball is showing respect for the building he's demolishing.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 20 September 2007 at 6:08am | IP Logged | 4
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The only reason the "heart's desire" gets ugly and decadent is because Superman is resisting the placating effects of the plant. His "dream" reflects the tension building in him.••• Which is exactly contrary to what the setup of the story tells us. This is like saying "Superman is absolutely, completely and totally invulnerable to ordinary bullets --- except the "reveal" in my story is that he's been shot by an ordinary bullet because I needed that to happen."
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 20 September 2007 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 5
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The Silver Age is not about goofy stories. It's about innocence, something we don't value greatly in contemporary society.
My 9 year old son is currently reading the giant Showcase editions and he loves every one of those Silver-Age comic books to death (although he did find Metamorpho a wee bit silly). It's nice to see a second generation enjoying those works as much as I did the first time around (albeit as reprints in the back of 100-Page Giants).
Perhaps the best moment was when I bought him the "Batman Team-Ups (The Brave and the Bold)" collection and the little guy's eyes just popped looking at that beautiful Neal Adams Batman artwork. When I can trust him not to bend the pages, I'll have to dig out the three volumes of Neal's "Batman Illustrated" and spoil the little guy with colour!
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Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
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Posted: 20 September 2007 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 6
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Which is exactly contrary to what the setup of the story tells us.
The other part though is that Superman would be unable to escape the hold of that "Rose", were it not for Batman who is desperately trying to reach Superman's subconscious, much in the way coma victims are sometimes "talked back" to a state of awareness. Batman's appeals combined with Superman's intelligence and strength of will weaken the Rose in order for Batman to tear it away. During this process, Batman "reveals" the lie that is Superman's "dream" Krypton, causing Superman's mind to "create" the ugly disintegration of home and family in the dream, forcing him back to awareness again.
The story conceit, or the reason why Superman is caught so off-guard to begin with, is centered around the idea that Superman's birthday creates a kind of melancholy and even nostalgia for Krypton. I don't think Alan Moore created this "museum caretaker" role for Superman, nor did he create the Bottle City of Kandor. I think Moore believes Superman is a history buff. And like most history buffs, particularly where family lineage is involved, Moore's Superman subconsciously "longs" for a heritage of personal peace on a world not beset by the problems and responsibilities of Earth. Or, the "human" desire to be normal, to live a normal non-superhero family life, as he imagines it. Not as Krypton might truly have been.
Done right, Superman's relationship with Krypton doesn't have to make him "alien" any more than growing up in Kansas makes him "naive". But the "caretaker" of Kryptonian history only works if Superman is the LAST Kryptonian. That's my only issue with stories of that nature; if he's not the LAST, then Superman's interest in Krypton is self-conscious escapism. Clark Kent wouldn't indulge in any thoughts of escaping his responsibilities. Not consciously, anyway.
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Ron Farrell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1518
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Posted: 20 September 2007 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 7
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I certainly don't think "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" was a parody. My complaint with it, as a finale to the Weisinger/Schwartz era, was that there were too many deaths to the supporting cast: Pete, Jimmy, Lana, Krypto. I would have preferred a happier ending, with all of them still alive.
You wanted to kill folks? Have the Prankster take out Steve.
Though in hindsight, perhaps the deaths are in keeping with Superman moving into the post-COIE era.
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Pascal LISE Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 July 2006 Location: France Posts: 1111
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Posted: 22 September 2007 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 8
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Marvel took his (Kirby) talents for granted and denied him the credit and
compensation he clearly deserved. Worse, he was overshadowed by his
loquacious and photogenic collaborator, Stan Lee, who became the public
face of an enterprise that depended heavily on Mr. Kirby’s skills.
New York Times takes on Kirby legacy.
Read the full article here
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 22 September 2007 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 9
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The story conceit, or the reason why Superman is caught so off-guard to begin with, is centered around the idea that Superman's birthday creates a kind of melancholy and even nostalgia for Krypton.••• Then don't tell us that the macguffin grants everyone their "heart's desire". This is like Guinan telling Picard that no one can leave the Nexus unless they are pulled out against their will. So later Picard and Kirk simply --- leave. (And especially don't tell me there is an "escape clause" in this "heart's desire" and then have the heroes be so incredibly moronic as to use the same macguffin to imprison the issue's villain!!)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 22 September 2007 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 10
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Though in hindsight, perhaps the deaths are in keeping with Superman moving into the post-COIE era.•• And therefore completely inappropriate in the "last Silver Age" story. This is the inherent problem with everything I have read of Moore's -- he cannot help but break the toys, even if his supposed mandate is to show them at their best.
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Ted Pugliese Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 7985
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Posted: 22 September 2007 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 11
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If I understand you correctly, JB, I agree completely. If the rose grants you your hearts desire, why would there be any conflict or tension building within?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133334
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Posted: 22 September 2007 at 9:32am | IP Logged | 12
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Precisely. There was nothing in the story to indicate this was a "trick question" -- like the genii who grants wishes literally. ("Make me a chocolate malted!") We were told the rose granted the heart's desire. If there was anything wrong with Superman's fantasy, it would not, by definition, be his heart's desire.
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