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Kor Watkins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 765
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 1
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To be honest, the numbers are probably higher. I'd say 6-10% covers those who are "out". No matter what the true percentage is, gay people are a part of life. We exist. We are part of the world's population, and deserve representation, even in comics. And, homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom, where for most species, is driven by instinct.
I do hope that everyone realizes that stories can be told about homosexuals that have nothing to do with the character's sex life. Acknowledgement of a character's sexuality is not the same thing as sex. Showing Batman on a date with a woman, or kissing Catwoman, acknowledge's his sexuality without being about sex. Showing Batwoman on a date with a man, or kissing Renee M., acknowledges her sexuality without being about sex. Showing Nightwing in bed with Starfire was about sex. Since the latter was handled well, I had no problem with it.
Ultimately, this seems like a non-issue. If a writer chooses to have a gay character, main or supporting, hero or villain, should be able to do so. If a writer chooses not to have such a character, that's fine too.
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8156
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 2
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I remember that scene, from X-Men#196, and recall that it was published not more than a few months after your using the word in your Hate Monger storyline in the FF. I always wondered if that was just a coincidence or not.
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Chris Durnell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1234
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think a problem some people have with homosexuality in comics is that for the most part that element has nothing to do with the genre. Comics are not meant to be some sort of "world book" that describes the entire setting and thus needs to account for everything including gays, the M3 money supply, Viennese cafe society in the 1800s, and sports statistics. The superhero genre is its own thing. That does not mean that homosexuality is inherently not something to be included. As JB and others have mentioned, it's part of the world. There are certainly many ways it can be present in a superhero story, but it is also true that it can stick out like a sore thumb when done for solely polemic reasons or just to be obtrusive.
As for Shooter's rules in the 1980s, I think it is very dangerous to determine someone's motivation for an action. It is also dangerous to judge people now on decisions taken 20 years ago. Comics then were still a mass market media targetted mainly to kids. Controversial topics could hurt sales, especially in certain parts of the country. Shooter could have simply been protecting the company. Entertainment companies have no duty to be activists on behalf of any cause you believe in.
One thing about Northstar's depiction is that it is very apparent that Northstar is gay - at least in a couple of scenes that would show up from time to time - based on either someone making an observation, someone telling a joke at Northstar's expense, or depicting who is at his place during a pool party. But it's something that would go over kids' heads and provides plausible deniability if anyone complained while still allowing the grown ups to know Northstar's character.
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4946
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 4
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Kor, I agree, but again, these numbers are just approximations. The only
study I found that was done using proper statistical analysis (assuming that
Stats Canada uses proper methods) showed a much smaller percentage than
what is touted as common knowledge. Nothing to do with accepting
homosexuals into society or anything like that. Saying they are probably
higher is just wishful thinking, unless there is hard evidence to back it.
Even if there actually was only 1%, as the data shows, so what? Does not
change anything.
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Mike Bunge Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1335
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 5
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Paul Greer - "I've never taken a poll on the folks I know or interact with, but 6-10% seems about right. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a little higher."
Nah. 10% is way too high. Before the recent influx of Latinos, that would have made gay folks the largest minority in America. In a small town of 1,000, that's 100 gay people. In a big city of 10 million, that's 1 million gay people. Considering the likelyhood of gay people moving from less-gay friendly rural areas to more accepting urban areas, many big cities would end up 20 to 30% gay or more, making them almost the biggest plurality of the voting public. At 10% I just can't see how homosexuality could ever be as hidden a thing as it has been in America and in other cultures and times. Of course, 1% is also ridiculously low.
What's got to make it hard to figure a number like this out is...
A. People still in the closet, and
B. people who want the number to be lower or higher because that makes it easier to define homsexuality as "normal" or "deviant".
Mike
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Jesus Garcia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 2414
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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JB: You're a snowback.
Coming from you ... that's a compliment;)
Sadly, it's also a fact of life in Montreal.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14864
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 7
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At 10% I just can't see how homosexuality could ever be as hidden a thing as
it has been in America and in other cultures and times.
---
While I do think the actual number is lower than 10%, I think it'd be a lot
easier to hide homosexuality than race.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4649
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 8
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Fred J. Chamberlain wrote:
I was sickened at the thought of the rape
and Bruce's response was that of repulsion, I didn't see it was
homophobic. |
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Since no one has mentioned it, the story in question, "A Very Personal Hell" appeared in issue #23 of The Hulk!, a magazine-sized publication from the late-70's/early 80's.
The argument for the story being homophobic was primarily based on the fact that this was the first time gay men had ever been depicted in a Marvel comic. If Marvel had a history of showing a variety of gay men over the years, in a variety of positive and negative roles, then these particular rapists would not stand out as significant. But the fact that these were the only gay men to appear in a Marvel comic at the time made their specific roles notable. It's sort of like Cosby's complaint in the 70's that the majority of black men on TV were in the roles of pimps and drug dealers. Imagine if the first black character to ever appear in a Marvel comic happened to be a rapist. It's the lack of balance that was the problem.
A lot of straight male homophobes are fearful of rape, or at least fearful of having a man attracted to them, and use that fear to stoke their hatred. Remember the guy ten or fifteen years ago from the Jenny Jones show, who murdered a gay coworker that revealed he had a crush on him on the show? This story played to that stereotypical paranoia cliche of the gay male predator. And the rapists even talked with a lisp, another cliche.
I have no idea what Shooter's own attitudes are/were, whether he was homophobic or simply thoughtless and didn't bother to fully consider the implications of such a portrayal. I'll be anxious to read Glenn's interview. From what I recall from interviews at the time, Shooter wanted the Hulk magazine to feature more mature, adult oriented stories, and wrote this story as kind of a guideline to show the writers what he was looking for. There apparently was a pretty large negative outcry about it though, both from people who thought it was homophobic and parents who felt it was an inappropriate story for kids (I can't recall exactly, but I think there were depictions of drug use and sex or nudity also in the issue). The Hulk magazine was cancelled just four issues after Shooter's story appeared... I'm not sure if it was partly in reaction to the controversy or not.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 10 September 2007 at 7:57pm
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Paul Kimball Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2207
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 9
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If Shooter did try and edit the material coming from his gay, or gay friendly,
staff -- so that the material would be recieved by the mass of the reading
public (who were/are mostly NOT gay) - good for him. That's a responsible
editor looking out for his sales figures. Where does "homophobia" come
into it? If 95 of 100 readers are NOT gay - why publish gay stories. I'd
rather lose 50% of my gay readership with those numbers - than 50% of my
NOT gay readers.
=+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hopefully if the stories are well written, no readers will be lost as good
stories are attractive to all orientations.
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Jesus Garcia Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 2414
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | 10
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It just occurred to me that the man attempting to rape Bruce Banner is perceived as gay. What if he wasn't? What if a man raping a man -- in this case -- was a case of male-over-male dominance and not an act of sexual gratification?
From what I've read, guys get raped in jail by men that are often NOT gay but who are simply trying to establish a pecking order. There is a very strong component of violence and dominance imbedded in human sexual behavior which doesn't necessarily point to a preferred orientation.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14864
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | 11
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It just occurred to me that the man attempting to rape Bruce Banner is
perceived as gay. What if he wasn't? What if a man raping a man -- in this
case -- was a case of male-over-male dominance and not an act of sexual
gratification?
---
In this particular case, they were at the YMCA, they were calling Bruce
"sweetie" and "cutie, and one of them was lisping. The rapists seemed more
to be gay stereotypes than prison toughs trying to establish dominance.
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John Harris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 February 2005 Posts: 1411
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Posted: 10 September 2007 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | 12
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For the record:
.
.
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