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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
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| Posted: 23 September 2007 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | 1
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Mark Waldman wrote:
| Besides, he talked to the documentary boys for half an hour and gave
them comics, so he probably realizes people occasionally will want to
knock on his door. He apparently just doesn't want fanfare and photos, |
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Indeed. As Mark Evanier pointed out on his blog the other day, Ditko is not a recluse who shuns contact with others, he simply chooses not to speak publicly about his work or anything else.
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F. Ron Miller
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 2
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I liked the documentary very much. I thought the point-of-view was well
pitched and it made for a good story. Personally I've always had a hard
time with certain absolutist types, they often strike me as excessively
reductive. The world isn't black and white and, for me, relativism has a
place. Though it takes all kinds, right? Mr. Ditko remains a fascinating
character and I don't believe his work would have the quality it does were
it not for his deep-held convictions. As for the drama over the Spider-
man credit I wonder what attribution he would have accepted? "Spider-
man, created by Steve Ditko, inspired by Stan Lee"? That hardly seems
right either.
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Dave Phelps
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 3
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From what I understand, he would be perfectly content with "Spider-Man, created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko." What he's taken issue with is Stan saying stuff like, "I've always considered Steve Ditko to be the co-creator of Spider-Man." In particular, the use of the term "considered," since that implies opinion rather than fact.
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Brad Brickley
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 4
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I wish Marvel would credit their creators like DC does with most of their characters. I don't think it's too much to have Spider-Man created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko or Fantastic Four created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in the credits.
I do think that it is nice to see it was in the opening credits of Spider-Man.
Edited to add: I didn't remember the credits right, it only says based on comics by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. Dickheads.
Edited by Brad Brickley on 24 September 2007 at 4:22pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 5
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Dave Phelps wrote:
| In particular, the use of the term "considered," since that implies opinion rather than fact. |
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Yes, from the documentary it is clear that when pressed to clarify, Stan feels he alone is the creator ("the guy that came up with the idea") and that he is being magnanimous in co-crediting Ditko. Kind of disappointing. Even if he did nothing else, simply designing
the costume warrants a co-creator credit for Ditko in my opinion. So, did Ditko co-plot Amazing Fantasy #15, or did Stan plot that one himself?
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F. Ron Miller
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 6
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I dunno. They're both extremely gifted artists, Lee and Ditko. Each
believes deeply that their point of view is the correct one. The idea that
one of them must be wrong seems unfair to both of them. Surely there's
no 'one' idea of Spider-man but a series of ideas that were strung
together over thirty some odd issues. Who came up with many of those
ideas is apparent by simply looking or reading. The rest are left to the
beautiful ambiguity of collaboration. Lee can assert that he came up with
the 'first idea' or the 'idea first' however you care to parse the words. No
one is contesting that fact, are they?
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Brian Hague
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 8:07pm | IP Logged | 7
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Joe Simon spends a great number of pages in his book, "The Comic Book Makers" doing so, and Kirby has apparently given interviews wherein he contests the notion as well.
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 24 September 2007 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | 8
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As I recall in that book, Joe Simon worked with C.C. Beck, and later Jack Kirby, on a character called both "The Silver Spider" and "Spider-Man" at different points, which was a spin on the Captain Marvel (Shazam!) idea of a young boy becoming an adult superhero, and that idea was later reworked into The Fly.
Other than the name "Spider-Man," that character had NO resemblance to what Stan Lee and Steve Ditko later created.
Can someone post Steve Ditko's page where he shows the differences between what he designed and what Jack Kirby designed for Spider-Man?
Edited by Matt Hawes on 24 September 2007 at 11:28pm
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John Harris
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 9
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Here you are Matt. Don't thank me ...thank my insomnia!
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Edited by John Harris on 25 September 2007 at 12:11am
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John Harris
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 12:14am | IP Logged | 10
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 12:41am | IP Logged | 11
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Thanks for posting that, John. Too bad the focus of the piece is primarily on refuting the idea that Kirby had a role in creating Spider-Man, and that he doesn't comment more on who contributed which ideas to the first story. "While it is necessary to know who made the major or important contributions to any published story, it is irrelevant in this context." Frustrating sentence. I really wonder how much Ditko contributed to the plot of that first story.
Wouldn't it be cool if the five pages Kirby pencilled survived somewhere?
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John Harris
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| Posted: 25 September 2007 at 12:54am | IP Logged | 12
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Wouldn't it be cool if the five pages Kirby pencilled survived somewhere?
Jason Czeskleba
I was thinking the same thing Jason. I would like to see them very much!
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