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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 03 April 2007 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 1
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Compare this issue with Mark Waid's "Unthinkable" storyline, where Reed Richards is portrayed as a bullheaded skeptic who refuses to believe in magic. If you live in the Marvel Universe, then magic is real, as are gods
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SER: Yes, this is how non-scientists write scientists, I think. They depict them as basically the mirror image of the most dogmatic evangelist. Scientists should be the most open-minded people around -- they just need evidence (provable evidence) before they leap to conclusions. A scientist would say that "there is no evidence that magic exists." A scientist would not look at Dr. Strange do his thing and say, "There is no such thing as magic."
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It's similar to the Scully syndrome on the X Files.
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SER: I tend to think Scully got a bum rap. She simply insisted on actual evidence for the more bizarre assertions Mulder made. Mulder never really got conclusive evidence and encountering the inexplicable and stating categorically that "aliens did it" is as rational as someone in the real world encountering the inexplicable and stating categorically that "God did it."
Scully became sort of laughable later on, as the series progressed. But I think that was more a failing of the show. The delicate balance was tipped.
Edited by Stephen Robinson on 03 April 2007 at 12:23pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133248
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Posted: 03 April 2007 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 2
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SER: Yes, this is how non-scientists write scientists, I think. They depict them as basically the mirror image of the most dogmatic evangelist. Scientists should be the most open-minded people around -- they just need evidence (provable evidence) before they leap to conclusions. A scientist would say that "there is no evidence that magic exists." A scientist would not look at Dr. Strange do his thing and say, "There is no such thing as magic."*** A couple of years ago, I was approached about the remote possibility of doing a miniseries in collaboration with what we shall here call A Famous Skeptic. This would be using one of the publisher's skeptical characters. Snag was, the Famous Skeptic wanted to play up the skepticism of this character. Wanted to make that the whole point of the series, with the character constantly debunking ghosts and aliens and other such wotnot. Which, of course, simply doesn't work. A skeptic in a superhero "universe" would be someone who seeks proof of the outrageous and the supernatural, rather than blindly accepting it. He would not be someone who denies the existance of such things (or, in a comicbook "reality", can easily disprove them!).
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Don Zomberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005 Posts: 2355
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Posted: 03 April 2007 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | 3
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To say nothing of the fact that Scully was a Catholic and a skeptic. Yeesh. (Although, to be fair, that is fairly representative of a world where belief in God is considered normal, while that same attitude toward vampires and ghosts is not.)
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Marin Balabanov Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2005 Location: Austria Posts: 195
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Posted: 03 April 2007 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 4
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This was definitely one of the best issues in JB's run on the FF. The FF
behaved in a characteristic manner, Galactus was represented as the truly
cosmic and awe inspiring entity that he should be (and has been only
seldomly shown since). JB's artwork of that period is my favorite. Especially
his inking style absolutely "works". I particularly like the Kirby-exque
collage-effects within eternity.
Most of all the whole storyline that started out as a Galactus-Solo-Story and
ran through a Dr. Doom-Solo-Story and an epic battle against Tyros
culminated in a truly worthy finale.
JB started out big and never pulled a punch.
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Sterling Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 June 2006 Location: United States Posts: 354
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Posted: 03 April 2007 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 5
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Quite a few of the comics I read religiously as a kid don't hold up for me today but what is truly amazing is that these issues continue to get BETTER each time i revisit them.
I consider myself very lucky to have been the perfect age when JB was running FF and Alpha Flight.
My only regret is that I can't somehow erase my memories of reading these comics so I can experience that "first time" thrill all over again. I'm sure if I were buddy-buddy with Reed he could figure out a way...
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Ian Carroll Byrne Robotics Member
King Of Pain
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 526
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Posted: 03 April 2007 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | 6
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The fact we are having such a robust discussion of this issue (and
storyline) almost 25 years after publication goes to show how well good
this issue and storyline were. Will we be saying the same of more recent
"epics?"
I totally agree with Geoff. This serious philosophical conversation about a
superhero comic is a signifier of the story's quality and its creative
ambition. Cheers to JB for both!
My thanks to JB and Mark Haslett for addressing the questions I had
about the philosophy behind FF #262. I think I've learned something
from what each of you have said, though as some doubt about its
philosophical merit is resolved, new questions spring up. For example:
1. I never thought of Reed Richards as a pantheist, though a rational
character in the Marvel Universe with Reed's life experience would have
no choice but to yield to the evidence before him. (But JB, can Reed's
admission that gods exist really be considered "faith"? For him, no leap
of faith is required to accept plain fact.)
Incidentally, this talk of faith matters in a Marvel comic reminds me of a
two-part story in THOR from shortly before Walt Simonson's run,
featuring an antagonist called the Crusader. Thor was based in Chicago
at the time, and had unwittingly attracted a pagan cult who worshipped
the Thunder God. The Crusader (an extremely problematic character
from a conceptual perspective) was a Christian who derived all of his
superhuman power from his religious fervor. Enraged by the Thor Cult,
the Crusader attacked Thor as a pagan, even doing him physical harm in
the process. As I recall, Thor had to return to Asgard to recover!
In one memorable panel from the second part of the story, Odin tells
Thor that his son should make the pagan cult disband, as "our time of
worship has past." But this makes no sense -- in the Marvel Universe,
millions of Earthlings would worship these gods among us, simply due to
the preponderence of EVIDENCE. How could Yahweh or Jesus compete
with Thor? Just as the MU's version of John Byrne would be "crazy not to
be" a theist (or is that pantheist?), MU's religious folk would be crazy to
waste time worshiping the unverifiable monotheistic mainstays.
2. One problem with comparing Galactus (who JB treats as a force of
nature) to space in his neutrality is that Galactus is a conscious entity who
has been shown to have some kind of moral code that is self-restraining
('Since you Earth people did this thing for Galactus, your planet with not
be consumed by Galactus' cosmic hunger!' etc.). How is such an entity
neutral -- with a code of honor, he's not simply the cosmic equivalent of
predator shark, minding his instinctive place in the food chain. Is he?
3. The problem of Reed's decision to fight Galactus in order to save Earth
while not destroying Galactus in order to save other inhabited worlds
from destruction remains a difficult one for me to resolve with Reed's
heroism intact. If only Eternity could show me the "Cosmic Truth" as
he did to JB, I wouldn't have to take it on faith that Richards did the right
thing!
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Andrew Paul Leyland Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 April 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 474
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Posted: 04 April 2007 at 3:43am | IP Logged | 7
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I started re-reading the FF in conjuncture with these weekly reads and got so caught up in them that I blitzed right through (read "Hero" the other day). They are so utterly engrossing and entertaining - It's a shame no comics like this are being published today let alone no FF comics!
"Scully became sort of laughable later on, as the series progressed. But I think that was more a failing of the show. The delicate balance was tipped."
Some of Mulder's theories were wacky though. Regularly I'd find myself wondering where he dug that preposterous story from.
So, in conclusion I would like to say "Thank You" to Mr Byrne for some damn fine comic books.
Andy
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133248
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Posted: 04 April 2007 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 8
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But JB, can Reed's admission that gods exist really be considered "faith"? For him, no leap of faith is required to accept plain fact.*** One of the unconsidered points of a "universe" such as those displayed in Marvel or DC books is the impact on language. Reed Richards (as everyone else) would know for a fact that certain gods were real. Would this be "faith"? Perhaps more in the sense of "I have faith in you" than "I have faith that the gods exist." Ditto "belief". Does Reed "believe" the gods exist? In the same way, certainly, that he "believes" gravity exists -- but not in the sense of a leap of faith. And don't even get me started on what time travel does to tenses!!
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Bob Simko Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 5982
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Posted: 04 April 2007 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 9
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I've always loved that cover...the "alien" in the lower right corner is great. What a blockhead!
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Juan Jose Colin Arciniega Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6413
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Posted: 07 April 2007 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 10
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I love thia issue!...One of the best of the run. A great surprise this one was for me the first time i read it. If only Galactus had stayed as defined in this issue....
Edited by Juan Jose Colin Arciniega on 07 April 2007 at 3:34pm
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Ray Brady Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3740
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Posted: 07 April 2007 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 11
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So how exactly do you define a god in a comic book universe?
Is Galactus a god?
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 31148
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Posted: 08 April 2007 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | 12
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Galactus would be beyond being a god, I would think. And, it doesn't seem as tho anyone but his herald would worship him.
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