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Ian Carroll
Byrne Robotics Member
King Of Pain
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 526
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 12:02am | IP Logged | 1
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Whether or not Prof. Singer is a stupid idiot (and I'm trying hard not to be
sarcastic about Mark Haslett's angry post above, especially as I have
lamented Singer's own self-defeating sarcasm), his blog inspires the
following challenges to the philosophy advanced by JB in FF #262:
1. Is JB's misquote (as related by Reed in his testimony) of Stan Lee's
Uatu saying Galactus is "beyond good and evil" when he actually said
"above good . . . or evil!" a true synonomous paraphrase, or does it fail to
recognize a key distinction between the two?
2. How can Galactus be netrual, and still be a contributor to the good in
the universe? Wouldn't the entity in fact be good, rather than above OR
beyond it?
3. How can Reed argue that "it does not require any belief in a supreme
being" to realize Galactus' place in the universal order, if the "faith" proof
he offers to prosecutor Lilandra for the greater good allowed by Galactus'
destructive acts is, as JB suggested above, based on Reed's close
encounters of a godly kind?
4. Again, if "it does not require any belief in a supreme being" to realize
Galactus' place in the universal order, who or what is "allowing" Galactus
to exist?
5. Does Reed's case (or JB's story), rely too much on miraculous surprise
witnesses for the defense, like Odin, Galactus himself, and the
personification of the Marvel Universe itself, Eternity? Especially when
their arguements boil down to, 'Reed Richards was right because we say
so.' (Like debating a Christian about the provability of God, only to have
the Christian constantly cited the Bible - God's word - as 'proof.') Singer
calls these authoritarian witnesses "a procession of literal dei ex
machina," and it's hard to disagree.
6. Uatu tells the exhausted chronicler Byrne on the last page that
Galactus will go on testing worlds with his arrival and consumption
attempts until the entity encounters a world that can finally destroy the
destroyer. Singer argues that Earth had the chance to be that world, and
JB had Reed blow it, perhaps simply so the MU status quo could be
maintained. Reed's obligation to the 'natural order' be damned?
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6413
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 1:47am | IP Logged | 2
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I'll bite, Ian-- but I'm leery of this if you don't already see these things.
1. You can't argue that "Beyond Good and Evil" is an invalid interpretation of a quote which reads "Above Good... or evil" -- You could argue that another interpretation exists (at least, in theory), but not that JB's interpretation is therefor wrong.
2. Space is neutral-- yet good things happen in it. Does that mean it's "good?"
3. Beneath the "Supreme Being" (as JB points out) are countless Gods who bestride the Marvel universe. Reed argues that no "Supreme God" is necessary to establish/demonstrat that there is (obviously) a divine order. Who created Odin? It's not important-- he exists and is a God. Marvel's universe is divine, not atheistic.
4. See 3.
5. See 3.
6. Reed's obligation to the natural order is what made him save Galactus. That Earth could destroy Galactus, but chose not to, means that it operated in support and understanding of the greater plan Reed has observed in the Marvel Universe. Uatu evokes a planet which may be powerful enough to destroy Galactus, yet not philosophical enough to send him on his way.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 5:02am | IP Logged | 3
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Does that mean that the Marvel Universe's John
Byrne is a theist?
***
He'd be crazy not to be!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 5:07am | IP Logged | 4
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Does Reed's case (or JB's story), rely too much on miraculous surprise witnesses for the defense, like Odin, Galactus himself, and the personification of the Marvel Universe itself, Eternity? Especially when their arguements boil down to, 'Reed Richards was right because we say so.' (Like debating a Christian about the provability of God, only to have the Christian constantly cited the Bible - God's word - as 'proof.') Singer calls these authoritarian witnesses "a procession of literal dei ex machina," and it's hard to disagree. *** In fact, it's easy to disagree, if one only keeps to the actual context of the story. The argument above is akin to suggesting the story makes no sense because no human beings can stretch, or turn invisible, or burst into flame with no harm to themselves. A Christian citing the Bible means about as much as a Tolkien fan citing "The Lord of the Rings". However, if that same Christian lived in a Universe in which God, or Jesus, or any of the New Testament characters were real and routinely interacted with humans, it would be a very different situation. As, indeed, it is in my story. "Because I say so" takes on rather a different resonance when the speaker is a genuine god or the living manifestation of the entire Universe.
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George Peter Gatsis
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Joined: 03 September 2004
Posts: 2128
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 5
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JB,
all I want to know... drawing yourself... did you thin out your weight in the book or were you that skinny at the time of drawing this issue?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 6
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I always draw myself as I actually look at the time.
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 7
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My first issue of the FF (and I think one of two comics during AEM--the other being Amazing Spider-Man # 248--that didn't drift off into silliness. Peter Parker #86 anyone?). Compare this issue with Mark Waid's "Unthinkable" storyline, where Reed Richards is portrayed as a bullheaded skeptic who refuses to believe in magic. If you live in the Marvel Universe, then magic is real, as are gods. It's similar to the Scully syndrome on the X Files. The rationalist just comes off looking like a stubborn child, which I suspect is the underlying motivation with certain writers who do these types of stories, like atheists in the real world are as silly as comic characters who encounter beings like Galactus and Dr Strange but don't believe they're real.
Kevin Smith tried that trick in his clumsy run on Daredevil as well, when Matt Murdock has a crisis of faith. The real problem with that is, the Judeo Christian god looks like a piker next to figures like Eternity and the Watcher.
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Geoff Gibson
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Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5741
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 8
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The fact we are having such a robust discussion of this issue (and storyline) almost 25 years after publication goes to show how well good this issue and storyline were. Will we be saying the same of more recent "epics?"
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 9
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Reed Richards is portrayed as a bullheaded skeptic
who refuses to believe in magic.
****
Can we have the real Reed Richards back now?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 10
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The fact we are having such a robust discussion of this issue (and storyline) almost 25 years after publication goes to show how well good this issue and storyline were. Will we be saying the same of more recent "epics?" *** One of the things that told me fairly early on that I might be doing something right was when I noticed that fans tended to talk about (and sometimes hotly debate) my stories. There were a few times that the artwork was singled out for comment, but mostly it was what the artwork was telling us about. (Oh, and by the way -- I realize "well good" is a typo, but I kinda like it!)
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Don Zomberg
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Joined: 23 November 2005
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 11
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From what I've heard about Civil War, Reed Richards is about as far gone as Spider-Man. (I had a crazy thought a while back that Marvel should let John continue his original run on FF, but collect the issues as new Visionary trades (ditto for his run on CA with Roger Stern). Continuity be damned. Let them pick up where they left off and do what they want.)
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Geoff Gibson
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Joined: 21 April 2004
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| Posted: 03 April 2007 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 12
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JB:
(Oh, and by the way -- I realize "well good" is a typo, but I kinda like it!)
Another instance of my fingers typing faster than my brain! Did you have any idea as this story was coming together that it would have the impact/reaction it has had?
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Topic Closed)
