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Landry Walker
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2006
Posts: 510
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 1
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Michael Roberts: "There are things about a character that become iconic. It's not
something you can quantify. Creators could write stories that turn
Superman into a foul-mouthed womanizer and change Batman into a
effeminate gun-toting vigilante, and no matter how logical and
well-written these stories could be, I think most people would tell you
these characterizations are "wrong."
After 30 years of such stories, many of the voices you mention would
likely be drowned out by those who grew up with the aforementioned
interpretations.
I have family members who despise any interpretation of Batman outside
of the 60's as "wrong". I know children who consider anything not
"Batman Beyond" to be "wrong". No matter how you slice it, these
characters exist in a state of flux.
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Sam Karns
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7624
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'm all for discussing the reasonable possibilities, but so far nothing alternate to what I suggest has been offered.
***
The statement The Hulk said to Rick could have been a thought spoken out load and it's possible he had the intent, but it's a good thing the sun rise for Rick's sake.
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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The real question should be do you think it's imaginative and clever to point out the Hulk as killed or do you think it's a redudant attention whore gimmick.
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Sam Karns
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7624
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 4
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A redudant whore gimmick if The Hulk was captured and tried for the crime.
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Landry Walker
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2006
Posts: 510
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 5
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Martin Redmond:
Like any story idea, it depends on the execution.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14856
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 6
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After 30 years of such stories, many of the voices you mention would
likely be drowned out by those who grew up with the aforementioned
interpretations.
I have family members who despise any interpretation of Batman outside
of the 60's as "wrong". I know children who consider anything not
"Batman Beyond" to be "wrong". No matter how you slice it, these
characters exist in a state of flux.
---
Writing Superman as a foul-mouthed womanizer and Batman as an effeminate gun-toting vigilante would not be different interpretations, they'd be entirely different characters. These characters have a central premise to them. It can be pulled and stretched and interpreted a myriad of ways, but once you betray that central premise, you come out with a different character.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17698
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | 7
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Stop making sense, Michael.
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David Whiteley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 2748
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | 8
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"I'm pointing to the fact, at his inception, he has shown the willingness to
kill. Proving that has been fairly simple."
As I have said before, other heroes have contemplated killing as well. I'm
not sure what your "pointing to the fact ...he has shown the willingness to
kill" is proven iron-clad since other heroes have had similar thoughts and
have not acted on them or completed them. Is the Thing a killer, I mean
"willing to kill" based on his early FF appearances? We can assume that
almost any character might be "willing to kill" depending on circumstances.
Again, show me the completed act or the body.
I'm with Matt - gets tiring just restating opinion time and again. Deja vu.
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Kevin Hagerman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18017
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | 9
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Bruce Banner was desparate to keep his secret. He was also in the thrall of The Hulk. But the sun was coming up, so he KNEW he could make a THREAT that the Hulk couldn't follow through on before the change took place. The threat was to keep Rick silent, in hopes that his continued silence would be assured by the implication that he knew all along and said/did nothing.
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Landry Walker
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2006
Posts: 510
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 10
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Michael Roberts: "Writing Superman as a foul-mouthed womanizer and Batman as an
effeminate gun-toting vigilante would not be different interpretations,
they'd be entirely different characters."
In his history, Superman has been shown to be prejudiced, does that make
him a different character or a different interpretation than the current? Batman carried
a gun. Different character or different interpretation? How do you say
tomato?
The presentation of Batman in the 60's is about as far removed as you
can get from the original, or the current. By some peoples
interpretations, these are as much different characters as what you
suggest.
David Whiteley:
"Again, show me the completed act or the body."
You're right. It is tiring repeating the same thing over and over
again. Particularly to people who cannot be bothered to pay attention
the first or second times. I never said the Hulk was a killer,
therefore the repetitive demand for a corpse is pretty pointless. What
I
said was that he showed a clear intent to kill. Despite your repeated
arguments, this is not synonymous
with the consideration to kill and then an active decision to rise
above the desire. This was a character stopped by forces beyond his
control. Basically, you're comparing the character that pulls the
trigger on the gun only to discover that it's not loaded, with the
character that tosses the gun aside at the last moment. Not the same
thing and not necessary for the discussion.
David Whiteley: "I'm with Matt - gets tiring just restating opinion time and again. Deja vu."
Then stop responding. You're hardly obligated to participate and you've
certainly ignored enough relevant points, including my repeated request
to offer up an alternative intent for the Hulk/Rick scene under
question.
Edited by L. Walker on 01 March 2007 at 9:34pm
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David Whiteley
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 11
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Similar to the way you ignored everything prior to the "Again, show me the
completed act or the body" line of mine", which addressed my thoughts on
you painting Hulk as someone willing to kill, apparently. Which was part of
the basis of the argument.
As for alternatives, despite your "tea party" scenario which would be enough
to have anyone decide NOT to address that scene, who is to say he was not
just going to lay down a smack-down? If he was so intent on killing... well,
he's had 40 issues to seal the deal.
Oh, and your gun analogy assumes that the person using the gun was going
to shoot to kill rather than to injure (a possibility).
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14856
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| Posted: 01 March 2007 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | 12
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In his history, Superman has been shown to be prejudiced, does that make
him a different character or a different interpretation than the current? Batman carried
a gun. Different character or different interpretation? How do you say
tomato?
The presentation of Batman in the 60's is about as far removed as you
can get from the original, or the current. By some peoples
interpretations, these are as much different characters as what you
suggest.
---
How does a gun-toting Batman or the silly 60s time-traveling, alien-fighting Batman betray the character? Was he no longer motivated by the death of his parents to become Batman? Did he stop fighting for justice?
I'm not familiar with your Superman reference? Was this an instance of Superman being a bigot or was it Superman reflecting the prejudices of American society at the time?
Again, there are certain things that define a character. Take Superman. Strange visitor from another planet who fights for truth, justice, and the American Way. This has been interpreted many ways, but as long as you stick to the above, you still have the same character. I mean personally, I can't stand the Weisinger Superman. He comes across as silly to me. But I can still recognize him as Superman.
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