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Sam Karns Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7624
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | 1
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LOL!!!!
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 2
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For many decades, Batman was not a killer, and did not use a gun, and doing so would have been grossly out of character. This, in spite of the fact that Batman had used a gun and killed in his earliest appearances. Batman was still being developed, and those early issues were his formative years as a character. The "real" Batman would not surface until a bit later.
This is the same with the Hulk. The Hulk was not meant to be a killer, once the Hulk was fully developed.
+++++++++++++
Spot-on.
As originally depicted, the Hulk was a brutish, sinister character, one who often plotted against the human race.
Of course, his physical appearance, strength, intelligence level, and personality traits radically fluctuated during those first six issues, and continued to do so after the series was cancelled. It wasn't until around 1966 when the familiar "Hulk smash!" version started to become the stardard.
These early stories were certainly proving grounds for the character, but at no time did he ever kill a person. He may have gone on rampages, he may have plotted against humanity, he may have said he would kill Character X during the heat of battle, but he never actually killed anyone.
When all is said and done, the early Hulk, while full of anger, bluster, and threats, was never truly malicious, and never actually killed anyone.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 01 March 2007 at 4:48pm
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Landry Walker Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2006 Posts: 510
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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Matt Hawes: "I never said the original Hulk was "innocent." I said he was thugish."
Did I say you described the Hulk as innocent? Nope. If I had meant you, I would have specified you.
Matt Hawes: "The "real" Batman would not surface until a bit later."
Or perhaps the "real" Batman was buried by the revisionist one you mention?
What makes one interpretation more valid than another? Popularity?
Longevity? Obviously, not original portrayal. Why are alterations done
before familiarity with a character acceptable when alterations done
afterward are not?
Edited by L. Walker on 01 March 2007 at 5:15pm
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David Whiteley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 2748
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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Sam, that deer was evil and Hulk knew it.
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Sam Karns Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7624
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 5
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Can you blame the deer for hitting on Jen?
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16498
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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L.Walker wrote:
...If I had meant you, I would have specified you.... |
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Then who else did you mean?
L. wrote:
...What makes one interpretation more valid than another? Popularity? Longevity? Obviously, not original portrayal.... |
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Longevity, for the most part. Mickey Mouse, Superman, Snoopy, and, yes, The Hulk, were all quite a bit different in their earliest forms than what would later become their accepted forms.
Ok, you want to believe that the Hulk is an evil murderer. Go ahead. Looks like you have your wish with the way he is portrayed anymore, doesn't it? I bet if you ask Stan Lee, or if you could have asked Jack Kirby, they would both have said that the Hulk wasn't meant to be a killer. That's speculation, naturally.
Anyway, we disagree on how the Hulk should be portrayed. I don't really care to continue on with the back-and-forth about the matter, as all I would be doing is wasting time reasserting my position.
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Sam Karns Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7624
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 7
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Matt, please do continue, there are some of us who value what you contribute. I'm happy you and others who made your statements is because you have a lot of comic knowledge I lack. I would like to understand where did things go wrong? In your opinion where did it start to slide or shift Banner into a darker side from being a childlike monster?
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Landry Walker Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2006 Posts: 510
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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Matt Hawes: "Then who else did you mean?"
I was unaware I needed to be speaking of a specific individual when I
qualified my statement as general. If it doesn't apply to you why are
you taking offense at it?
Matt Hawes: "Longevity, for the most part. Mickey Mouse, Superman, Snoopy, and,
yes, The Hulk, were all quite a bit different in their earliest forms
than what would later become their accepted forms."
The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes the
evolution of a character reaches a final point. When in fact, every
character you mention continues to evolve. There is no static "accepted"
form. So why are certain alterations acceptable while others are not?
Matt Hawes: "Ok, you want to believe that the Hulk is an evil murderer. Go ahead."
Now you're just being an immature ass. As I said: "Should the character be written
as a murderer now? I never claimed any such thing."
Matt Hawes: "Looks like you have your wish with the way he is portrayed anymore,
doesn't it?"
There you go again.
Matt Hawes: "I bet if you ask Stan Lee, or if you could have asked Jack
Kirby, they would both have said that the Hulk wasn't meant to be a
killer. That's speculation, naturally."
It's the foundation of your speculation I find questionable. I've
asked you what motive other than murder you could ascribe to the Hulk
in his comments to Rick. You're putting nothing else on the table to
consider. In fact, there is no other logical interpretation. The
silence, in this instance, is deafening. Do I think the Hulk should now
be portrayed a an "evil killer" now? No. But that does not change how
he was portrayed originally.
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David Whiteley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 2748
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 9
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Intent, in this case brief and unfulfilled, does not make one a killer by any
means. Show me him finishing the act and you will have proven your point,
L.
If every hero who considered taking the life of a villain was a killer, there
would be a lot more killers out there.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14855
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | 10
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The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes the
evolution of a character reaches a final point. When in fact, every
character you mention continues to evolve. There is no static "accepted"
form. So why are certain alterations acceptable while others are not?
---
There are things about a character that become iconic. It's not something you can quantify. Creators could write stories that turn Superman into a foul-mouthed womanizer and change Batman into a effeminate gun-toting vigilante, and no matter how logical and well-written these stories could be, I think most people would tell you these characterizations are "wrong."
With the Hulk, the defining moment for the character is Banner risking his life for Rick Jones. Banner is a hero. The Hulk can go and has gone through many changes, but altering that one defining feature, which is what making Hulk a killer would do, would be "wrong."
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 11
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This is a challenging question. I don't think the Hulk ever murdered (as in, set out with malice aforethought to take a life) but has he wreaked such hideous destruction in a fit of rage that someone later died because of it?
The Hulk is a gamma-powered force of elemental rage. In a gentler day and age... no, the Hulk never caused the death of anyone. That's not what heroes do. (Which invites the entire argument of "Is the Hulk a hero, a monster, or both?" but I digress.)
But now... yeah, I could imagine m-word taking that tack with the Hulk.
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Landry Walker Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2006 Posts: 510
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Posted: 01 March 2007 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 12
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David Whiteley: "Intent, in this case brief and unfulfilled, does not make one a killer by any
means. Show me him finishing the act and you will have proven your point,
L."
Intent, is in fact, measurable in a court of law. The threat of
violence itself qualifies as assault. Subsequently, measuring the
morals of a character by intent (fulfilled or not) is not a baseless
act. As for proving my point, I never said the Hulk was a "killer", did
I? I'm pointing to the fact, at his inception, he has shown the
willingness to kill. Proving that has been fairly simple.
But by all means, show me what other intent the Hulk was exhibiting.
I'm all for discussing the reasonable possibilities, but so far nothing alternate
to what I suggest has been offered.
Edited by L. Walker on 01 March 2007 at 6:08pm
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