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Topic: Stories that should NEVER be told.. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Monte Gruhlke
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Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
Posted: 08 February 2007 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 1  

Sometimes defense calls for irrationality.

After all... Who Defends the Defenders?
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David Whiteley
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 08 February 2007 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 2  

The same people who avenge the Avengers?
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Oliver Staley
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Joined: 02 January 2007
Posts: 447
Posted: 08 February 2007 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 3  

Or watches the Watchmen (to bring it all back home)
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Brian Crispkey
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Joined: 24 October 2006
Posts: 80
Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 4  

No Emery, you missed my main point entirely, either through not reading
properly or because you simply chose to ignore it. Giving you the benefit
of the doubt, I'll assume it was the former.

My 'irrational defence' of the Watchmen seems so far to consist of a post
on page 11 of this thread, agreeing with somebody else's observation of
what makes the Watchmen "a terrific story" (that's story, not 'superhero
story') and one post on page 16, in which I seem reasonably happy to
agree that the characters would be better described as "a bunch of
people that used to fight crime for various different reasons"
.
Obviously, I can see how you might have missed this, given that the
majority of page 16 seems to be dominated by your own somewhat
lengthy and quite confrontational postings.

Other than calling Joe on his usual hypocrisy, the rest of my input on the
topic the Watchmen is geared around what makes a hero- where I happily
deferred to John's answer (and take note, Emery- John's reply was short
and to the point- hey, it even had a point- you might want to try
that for yourself sometime) and I agreed to leave it there.

Now I'm quite sure that you're used to throwing your weight around in
debate, Emery (God knows I've seen you do it here enough) but not
everybody crumbles in the wake of your clearly superior intellect.
The ability to construct long, long angry posts refuting what
basically amounts to a point of view with your own brand of 'Emery logic'
does not automatically make you right- although it does make you
annoying*.

And really, how can I sound like anything, my angry little poppet?
I'm typing. Actually.

Sarcasm. It's a two way street- make sure you look both ways now.




*and judging by the length of this post, whatever your problem is must
be catching.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 5  

"Other than calling Joe on his usual hypocrisy"

I can't help it. I've taken the hypocratic oath.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 6  

Note to mods: it's getting really personal in here. 
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Brian Crispkey
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Joined: 24 October 2006
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Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 7  

You want to call 'foul' because you got caught with your pants down Joe?

Whatever.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | 8  

Um, FOWL !
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Brian Crispkey
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Joined: 24 October 2006
Posts: 80
Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 9  

Actually Joe, fair comment. Third paragraph of my last post- the comment
in brackets is pretty uncalled for and I take it back with apologies.

I'll leave it up unless asked to edit it though (I wouldn't want to be accused
of editing to get myself out of trouble).
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 10  

Fowl, as in duck. 
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Patrick T Ditton
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Joined: 07 February 2007
Posts: 404
Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 11  

I'd like to take it back to my side-faced quip - that Colossus and Northstar are NOT gay.  Someone replied that JB might disagree with the Northstar NOT being gay comment.

JB?

I've heard rumors you had no disagreement with, what I consider, absolute sacrilege to one of my childhood favorite characters (in a story that should never have been told - to keep this on topic). 

Please forgive me if I'm remebering this all through rose-coloured glasses, but I recall allusions to the "Jeannie Marie" split-personality of Aurora being gay/lesbian - but I only remember JB ever making Jean Paul/Northstar a manly-man using his celebrity status to score chicks (ala - Johnny Storm style).

So - in my warped sense of "not wanting to screw with my childhood memories" kind-of-way - one of the biggest stories that should NEVER have been told was the "coming-out of Northstar" - becuase no amount of retcon is going to put that puppy back in the closet.  Marvel's stock would dump from the negative hype of having a gay man go straight (though straight to gay is an acceptable dramatic platform for story-telling...)

Characters I could believe were gay - Captain America, Batman, Guy Gardner, Captain Marvel Jr, Sabretooth, Namor, Jason Todd/Robin.

Tell those stories...

oh - JB - if you have a second - please clarify (for me) your take on the "never should have been told" Northstar story.  Thanks.  If I missed it in another blog - I'm sorry - I did look.

rip-rip-woodchip-turn-it-into-paper....lay into me guys...I'm ready...
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Matt Reed
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 12  

No need to lay into you.  Northstar, as created by JB, was always supposed to be gay.  From the FAQ:

Was it your intent when you created NorthStar that he would be a gay man?

JB: When I created Alpha Flight they were basically half a dozen characters who could survive a prolonged battle with the X-Men. They had very little depth -- tho I am a compulsive creator of backstory, so I knew something about their histories even then -- and were not really created with any thought toward them eventually getting their own title. Unfortunately (?) they proved enormously popular, and so Marvel began pushing me to do an ALPHA FLIGHT book. Eventually I relented, and agreed to do the series -- which meant I had one problem instantly: I had to find ways to make those characters more three dimensional.

One of the things that popped immediately into my head was to make one of them Gay. I had recently read an article in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN on what was then (the early 80s) fairly radical new thinking on just what processes caused a person to be homosexual, and the evidence was pointing increasingly to it being genetic and not environmental factors. So, I thought, it seemed like it was time for a Gay superhero, and since I was being "forced" to make ALPHA FLIGHT a real series, I might as well make one of them Gay.

From there, it was a process of elimination. I didn't want the homosexual character to be one of the girls, since that was something people tended to associate (rightly or wrongly) with Claremont books. Mac Hudson and Heather were happily married and I did not want to mess with that. Michael was widowed with a daughter, and that way lay what I considered too much of a cliche, if he turned out to be Gay. Besides, as a Native Canadian he was already the resident "minority". The new guy, Puck, had his own set of problems. Sasquatach would be just too damn scary!! So I settled on Jean-Paul, and the moment I did I realized it was already there. Somewhere in the back of my mind I must have been considering making him Gay before I "decided" to so so.

Of course, the temper of the times, the Powers That Were and, naturally, the Comics Code would not let me come right out and state that Jean-Paul was homosexual, but I managed to "get the word out" even with those barriers. (8/24/2004)

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