"Hero" is a word that should command an enormous amount of respect. It is, by definition, a pro-active word. It describes a very special kind of human being. And it should not be used except with the greatest care.

John Byrne wrote: And you cannot grasp the difference between doing something heroic and being heroic?

I can grasp it just fine thank you. The scene is question was merely an example of what these people used to do on a frequent basis. So when does it stop being doing something heroic and become being heroic exactly? I suppose you think that the firemen and police who went into the WTC and died weren't heroes either, but merely being heroic? By that definition there are no real heroes, merely people who do heroic things.

Edited to add: John got his post in a few moments before mine, thus the question about the WTC.

Okay, I'm now officially sorry I mentioned Watchmen -- put that under "Debates That Aren't Worth Engaging In" (as far as I'm concerned anyway).

And that said, since we've pretty much exhausted the debate surrounding Watchmen, I'd like to expand the original topic by adding that although I don't think this qualifies under the "Stories that Shouldn't Have Been Told" (or Didn't Need to be Told) heading, I'd lump this under the heading of "Stories That Didn't Have A Favorable Impact On Superhero Comics":

John Byrne's NEXT Men -- not a single bit of deconstructionism that I can recall, featuring rather heroic characters with most of the trappings of conventional superhero comics (the primary aspects being people with super powers doing super deeds, facing off against evil doers of some sort, and trying hard to do the right thing overall).  Written and drawn by Comic Legend John Byrne (it said JB was a "Legend" on the cover, and at the time most of comicdom readily agreed with this fact), who gained his "Legend" status writing, plotting, and drawing superhero comics -- writing new, meaty, well-told tales of a brand-new group of super-powered folks.  NEXT Men was met with much critical acclaim by fans and professionals alike, and it broke down classic superhero barriers by telling tough, gritty, warm, and human stories about super-powered beings who -- contrary to longstanding superhero comic book conventions -- did not wear colorful fighting togs (they wore street clothes!), and didn't necessarily strive to maintain secret identities.

As Stanton Kushner stated earlier in this discussion:

Stanton L. Kushner wrote: Everything - EVERYTHING - that achieves any measure of success gets imitated.  Usually it get imitated badly.  Those poor imitations are not the fault of the original creators.

I absolutely agree with this statement, and to a large degree, I think the rest of the comic book industry looked at what JB was doing with NEXT Men and said, "Hey, this Byrne guy is a genius -- he helped propel X-Men to superstar status, and everything he touches turns to gold . . . are we seeing the future of superhero comics here with his NEXT Men?  Maybe people are tired of the costumes and capes -- maybe we need MORE grittiness. I mean, heck, Watchmen was a huge success, the Dark Knight Returns was a huge success, and now Byrne is showing us how to do realistic superheroes.  Let's get the X-Men out of those flashy costumes!  Let's layer on MORE angst -- it's the wave of the future!"

And THAT is how we ultimately ended up with a movie about the X-Men with the X-Men wearing black leather instead of the colorful costumes we all knew and loved from the comics . . . and that is how we ended up with a movie version of Wolverine who openly mocked the idea of a "yellow spandex" costume -- and that's also ultimately how we ended up with the "Ultimates," and a Wonder Woman who kills, and a Superboy who is a murderer, and everything else that is wrong with superhero comics today.

I blame JB.

I blame JB for the NEXT Men the same way I blame Alan Moore for Watchmen and Frank Miller for Dark Knight Returns -- I blame them for doing something different and for doing it well enough that it was perceived as something worth imitating.

I also thank JB, Alan Moore, and Frank Miller for doing something different, and for doing it well enough that it was perceived as something worth imitating.

I blame virtually everyone who came after in the comic industry for allowing these works to be imitated badly. 

And THAT is how we ultimately ended up with a movie about the X-Men with the X-Men wearing black leather instead of the colorful costumes we all knew and loved from the comics . . . and that is how we ended up with a movie version of Wolverine who openly mocked the idea of a "yellow spandex" costume -- and that's also ultimately how we ended up with the "Ultimates," and a Wonder Woman who kills, and a Superboy who is a murderer, and everything else that is wrong with superhero comics today.

I say all of this with mock seriousness, but the truth is that regardless of what Watchmen was, it didn't need to be imitated, and it didn't have to have an impact on good ol' old-school superhero comics, but the unfortunate fact is that the books mentioned DID have at least some negative impact on superhero comics, if only by way of the sad, pale, badly-executed attempts to emulate and imitate that followed.

Brian Crispkey- "There are people who have within them the capacity to
do the right thing, for the right reason, with no consideration of their own
well-being". So why does this not apply to Nite Owl and Silk Spectre
rescuing people from a burning building? Especially given that they know
full well they face arrest for doing so?"

 
If we're talking Nite Owl II and Silk Spectre II, Moore pretty clearly established them as action-junkies who did it for the thrill as much as being the right thing to do.

Mike

I'm not asking this in a "playing dumb" way, but what was unheroic about either Nite Owl 1 or 2? They both selflessly fought crime and the 2nd Nite Owl retired because he wanted to obey federal law, though he didn't want to.

Rorscach isn't a hero, BTW. He's just a lost, sad soul who is desperately seeking meanign in his life and is using crimefighting to fill the void created by a sh!tty childhood.

"Joe: you need to grow up and get a life. You do this place and JB more
harm than you realise."

I have no life! I'm a cancer ! I'm the Anti-Life Eqaution !

Joe, hide! I saw Darksied coming and you know what happens if he finds you!

James, I feel like Nite owl 1 was the only real super-hero in the whole story.

Nite Owl 2 was a loser. Not a loser like Spider-Man, who does the right thing in the end. But an unsatisfied, self-loathing sad sack.