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Derek Muthart
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2005
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 1
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you seem to be equating power level with characterization. Shaman isn't as powerful as Talisman, so he is automatically a less developed character.
****
I'm going to have to agree with John on this one. Shaman was far more interesting than Talisman. I always saw Talisman as just another member of the magic wielding pantheon in the Marvel Universe. Kind of how I view members of the Green Lantern Corps other than Hal Jordan.
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Derek Muthart
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2005
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:19am | IP Logged | 2
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Sorry I didn't know clipping comments was against the forum. I will include full comments in the future.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 3
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It's not the clipping that's the problem, it's where you clipped it. You changed what he said."What I understand is that you created the first native american in comics with any true potential…" Whole different statement.
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Derek Muthart
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2005
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 4
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You're right. I went back and re-read the whole statement and it is quite different. Now I can't I show off my Native American Marvel Universe comic book knowledge. Dang it!
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Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5680
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 5
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Was Gwen the first "hero's girlfriend" to die in comcis? Eventually, it seemed like a cliche'. "They're getting serious, we better kill her!"
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Luca Too
Byrne Robotics Member
Auto-Contrarian
Joined: 29 October 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 176
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 6
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We have no clear way of knowing just when Peter and Bette broke up, or when Liz ceased to be the love of his life -- but with Gwen, the moment of her death is inescapable.
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Why not - we can tie those events down to particular issues (especially in the case of the break-up with Betty) just as easily as Gwen's death..?
Unless you are suggesting that Peter is so spectacularly unfaithful that he goes out with Gwen while still in love with Betty and/or Liz..?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 7
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Why not - we can tie those events down to particular issues (especially in the case of the break-up with Betty) just as easily as Gwen's death..?*** Don't. Work. So. Hard. At. Being. Obtuse. It's not worth the effort. Peter and Bette broke up. Liz and Peter broke up. Both continued to be recurring characters in Peter's story. Gwen died. Bit of a difference. And a much more traumatic and definitive line thru the continuity.
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Thomas Moudry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 8
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It's always been interesting to me how Gwen Stacy's death sort of intensified the Spider-Man premise of "With great power comes great responsibility." The loss of Gwen redoubled Peter's need to use his spider-powers to do the right thing.
Edited by Thomas Moudry on 04 February 2007 at 10:15am
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Oliver Staley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 January 2007
Posts: 447
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 9
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About Watchmen:
Regardless of whether you think its a brilliant story (as I do), I think its most
significant impact is its structure. I recently re-read it and was blown away
by Gibbons use of "camera" work: pulling in and out of panels, showing the
same scenes from multiple angles, all within the strict 9-panel framework.
Plus, centering of story around the newstand, the sidebars with minor
characters like Rorshach's psychiatrist, the elaborate back-story texts.
That sort of thing may have been done before but I'd never seen it. To me,
it's the Citizen Kane of comics.
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Thomas Moudry
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 10
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Was Bucky Barnes' death (as revealed in Avengers no. 4) the first comic book super-hero death?
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Paul Gibney
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Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 11
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I think I'd give that 'honour' to The Comet. He appeared in PEP 1 -17 (July 1941), where he was killed and his brother became The Hangman to avenge him.
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7526
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| Posted: 04 February 2007 at 11:57am | IP Logged | 12
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In light of the recent posts and points made in this thread, I'd go along by saying that WATCHMEN is not a "superhero story"-- it IS still a terrific story, one told with plenty of sf and superhero/pulp tropes. It cast a long shadow over much that came after and probably did redefine for many what a "superhero story" ought to be... but I'd suggest (as others have) that this was an unforeseen consequence.
We're not always aware of paradigm shifts when they occur but it seems inarguable (21 years later) that WATCHMEN was a genuine paradigm shift in comic book storytelling.
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