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Wallace Sellars
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 1
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Batman Begins
Superman
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Andrew Hess
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 2
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Batman Begins Superman
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Frank Robert
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 3
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I stopped reading comics two or so years back, but, until then, I'd say Superman. He's put down Doomsday, Imperiex Probes, Darkseid, Mageddon, Disciple, and numerous other villains on his own -- many of these villains have trounced the rest of League all at once. He is, or at least was, the go-to guy for the DCU; while Thor, from what I recall, almost never defeats any team-busting level bad guys on his own.
On a related note. Regarding power, Thor is overrated and Superman is typically depicted far above Thor in power, in my opinion. Since coming back from the dead (and off the top of my head), Superman has:
- Atomized Earth 2 by punching, and being punched by, Earth Two Superman.
- In the same fight, punched/was punched so hard that he "shattered the boundaries of space and time," manifesting Elseworlds versions of himself and exchanging lives with Kal-L.
- Together with Kal-L (whom he matched in power, as shown by their fight) manhandled Superboy Prime from Earth to Krypton. Superboy Prime was so powerful that he moved planets around as easily as one moves "chess pieces," as the text writes. Prime also busted through a three hundred mile thick Green Lantern barrier composed by many, many GLs, including Guy Gardner. Prime also laughed off Black Adam's magic lightning enhanced attack and swatted the villain away casually, and shattered a barrier separating two realities.
- Temporarily held a black hole in one hand.
- Created enough static electricity to be formed into a temporary containment field for the black hole.
- Powered the engines that moved an exact replica of Krypton (which was recorded as having nearly sixteen times Earth's mass).
- Split a spheroidal Saturnian moon in one fly-though.
- Towed Earth against a force knocking it from orbit alongside J'onn and Wonder Woman.
- Stopped Earth from zooming into the Sun -- Starbreaker threw it -- alongside Hal Jordan (at the start of Superman's career).
- Absorbed a detonation of "anti-sunlight" that was said to be capable of destroying "half the galaxy."
- With Kyle Rayner and Wonder Woman, towed the Moon from orbit to Earth's atmosphere so fast that seventy white Martians didn't even notice it, then towed it back.
- Took turns with Rayner holding up the Moon against increasing gravity.
- As energy Superman, held up the move counter to a demon pulling it down. This was originally scripted for normal Superman.
- Flew through the Sun, gaining enough power to out-muscle Imperiex-powered Brainiac 13, who had the power of the Big Bang within him and was using "full-power counter-thrusters" against Superman.
- Used torquasm vo to trap a reality warper who was empowered by "infernal magics" within the theta realm, reversing all the warper's shifts to reality with ease.
- Survived a blast "equal to one million nuclear explosions" with nothing more than a concussion after getting thrashed by Doomsday, and commented on how good the heat of the blast felt on his face.
- Traveled through black holes at least twice.
- Flown into a fed Sun Eater that was "fifty times the size of the Kepler supernova," been drained by massive doses of red solar energy (grrr ... I hate that they've brought back that dumb weakness), then survived the shockwave of an anti-matter bomb (or entropy bomb -- can't remember, sorry) that destroyed the Sun Eater. In his weakened state, the radiation that followed the blast may have killed Superman, but this was never proven either way. Nevertheless, he survived the physical explosion.
- Survived the detonation of a star, only being knocked out by its destruction.
- Survived prolonged exposure to entropy within the Phantom Zone.
- Been attacked simultaneously by Bizarro, Mongul, and a power-enhanced Silver Banshee atop an island peppered with Kryptonite -- after fighting a day's worth of battles against other villains -- and was then nuked, and emerged just fine. The villains all fled just before the nuke went off. Superman got up after it did, fused and picked up the remains of the island, flew it a bit above Earth, and then threw it into the Sun.
- As revised in Infinite Crisis Secret Files, his battle with Doomsday shook the planet, not just Metropolis.
- As expanded on in later issues of Superman/Batman, fighting close to the sun and then in other galaxies against Darkseid, Superman and Darkseid shook an entire solar system with their blows.
- Shattered Wonder Woman's "unbreakable" bracelets when history was revised by Cosmic King et al and they raised Superman as evil.
- Shook the Earth merely by touching down on it during his pre-Infinite Crisis fight against Wonder Woman.
Thor, in his forty-plus year history may have a few feats that match or exceed a few of those above, I think, but that's it. More typically, he is depicted as, at best, being somewhat bullet proof, and never as strong enough to perform the feats of strength that Superman has, I do not believe. Superman, this is the post-Crisis Superman I'm talking about, in my opinion and on average, is far, far, far more powerful than Thor is -- than most characters in Marvel are, I believe. He's on a level they just can't reach, more often than not, as far as I have been able to tell.
As for low-end depictions, Superman has very few (I'll be happy to detail them, if anyone likes), while Thor has very many: He's been knocked out by a falling ship mask -- dropped from a meager height -- he's feared death from a fall from a skyscraper, has had to dodge regular old spears, as well as block bullets, has mortally feared falling into lava, been knocked unconscious by Vietnamese artillery, had welts raised by standard jet fighter weaponry, been overwhelmed by "hundreds of pounds" of force from a firefighter's hose, etc., etc.
Sure, in crossovers, Superman will always be depicted as falling within Thor or whoever upper-tier Marvel opponent's ballpark in terms of power, but crossovers are just one small piece of continuity, which means that they don't amount to much within the context of Superman's larger continuity, and, per his larger continuity, Superman creams Thor in terms of power, as he does most other characters, I believe. The difference between Superman and Thor in power is akin to the difference between Wally West and Quicksilver in speed, I've always thought. Quicksilver doesn't compete, Thor doesn't compete.
_Frank Robert
Edited by Frank Robert on 05 October 2009 at 8:48pm
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Brian Hunt
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 4
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Superman
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Bill Catellier
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 5
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Superman
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Kevin Hagerman
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 6
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How about Superman and Phoenix?
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Troy Nunis
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 7
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um . . yeah, what Frank said -- outside of the Diniverse Superman who was always a punching bag - any Superman has pretty much been without the limitations which even as a God, Thor has had.
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Frank Robert
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
| um . . yeah, what Frank said -- outside of the Diniverse Superman whowas always a punching bag - any Superman has pretty much been withoutthe limitations which even as a God, Thor has had. |
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He's had his low showings in the comic, too. He once struggled with a falling gargoyle -- curiously in a comic wherein he stopped a spaceship "the size of a small moon" as it exited hyperspace and then threw it backwards "with ease" -- but, typically, yeah, I'd say he's far above how Thor is typically portrayed. "The Byrne Superman" is often cited on fan boards as being "the weak Superman," but even TBS seemed more powerful to me than Thor does.
Of course, I'm only talking about Superman as he was printed between 1986 and a bit past Infinite Crisis. Nowadays, from what I have seen on fan boards and in friends' comics, Superman is very, very easy to put down. Any schlub with a solar flashlight and a red lens can do it. Any magician can. Any power drainer can. It's not like it was during the Loeb years, when he was fighting off power drain, resisting high level spells, and red sunlight didn't weaken him, it merely didn't replenish him.
As for Superman vs. Phoenix: I could see Grant Morrison's Superman pulling what he did to Mageddon on her: Grab her and steal the cosmic energy out of her. I could also see Loeb, Casey, DeMatteis, and Schultz's Superman defeating her. Loeb and Casey might have him resit all her funky energy attacks and then simply knock her out, or have him dip into the Sun and then do that. DeMatteis and Schultz might have him defeat Phoenix with torquasm vo, a power that, sadly, in my opinion, hasn't been seen in years and years. Today's Superman writers would probably have him go down to her pretty hard, though, I think, in any number of ways. And my guess is that Chris Claremonte and John Byrne would have Phoenix eat Superman alive, at least the post-Crisis Superman, as would numerous other authors.
_Frank Robert
Edited by Frank Robert on 05 October 2009 at 1:33pm
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Steve Adelson
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 9
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All of a sudden, I'm reminded of a 60s (not 70s) era JLA cartoon, in which Superman was depicted as moving Earth by essentially standing on his hands and pushing.
IIRC, the script had Supes say, "Don't.... FIGHT me, Mother Earth!"
You can't make this stuff up.
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Frank Robert
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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I always wondered why Superman would have to stand on his hands to move a planet. I see no reason why he couldn't stand on his feet and do the same, unless he can't fly feet-first.
_Frank Robert
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Michael Tortorice
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| Posted: 05 October 2009 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | 11
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Superman ( he even un-balances the Toss-up)
Edited by Michael Tortorice on 05 October 2009 at 4:15pm
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Kevin Hagerman
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| Posted: 06 October 2009 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 12
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Another vote for Superman over Thor, but under Phoenix. Tuesday, 10/6 toss-up: better Dark _______ story by JB - the Scarlet Witch in West Coast Avengers or Sandy (the gal that got the trigger gene from Danny) in John Byrne's Next Men?
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Topic Closed)
