Chuck, did I actually say that white working class people were the sole source of stupidity?

No. All I said was that they had a tradition of anti intellectualism  - which is something completely different

And I managed to 'escape' that trap because my mother is a remarkable woman.

Chuck Dixon: "It's my experience that ignorance crosses all racial, national and class stratas"

Do you mean 'strata', Chuck?

Oh please, Mr. Bowen.  Give me a break.  Do you know our history?  Perhaps you should read more than a few threads, specifically sports threads, to discover where this comes from and if I can be arsed to refute his arguments..  Although I appreciate the sanctimonious speech, I think I'll take a pass.

Yeah, well, I don't read those threads because I genuinely don't understand them, Matt.  Linebackers?  Playbooks?  Pencil necks? Eh?   I don't really know the history.  Maybe it's worth keeping it over there?  Chad seems to be doing that. 

Anyway, nowt against you, really.  You almost always entertain and inform me - and you are usually very fair with everyone else.

Thanks, Dan. 

I'm sure you're a great guy in person, Chad, but cranky gets old real fast.  That sometimes comes out in me calling you Abe or posting his pic just because I know no other way to deal with you.

This here's America.  We don't need yor latin bunk.  It's stratums.

Actually stratum is the singular and strata the plural. So, only one of us is right and it ain't me.

That just proves that I must not have shaken off all of my working class white background entirely.

Now, if the aforementioned class does not hold stupidity close to its heart but rather 'anti-intellectualism' then please explain the difference.

I'm glad you asked that Chuck,

Anti - intellectualism is a kind of inverted snobbery. People are derided for  wanting to take interest in academic pursuits and/or the life of the mind. Where I grew up many working class folks would be derisive of attempts to get into higher education as either a waste of time or getting above yourself. Its a kind of wilful ignorance and that is why it is so bad.

Stupidity is the inability to understand and can't be helped "against stupidity the Gods themselves rail in vain" (probably misquoting but blame my lack of middle class background).Stupid people are not necessarily anti-intellectual.

And wisdom is something else again...

chad wrote: Jo, how do you "redefine" masculinity?

You decide for yourself what it should be - it is in the main an artificial construct based on societies requirements (or more often those of the powers that be in society), it is not written in tablets of stone.You do not have to play by other people's rules.

QUOTE: . I don't put any stock in "masculinity", but I also don't believe men should be converted, feminized, and if not then immediately categorized as the exact opposites of manhood, the gruff, Tool Time-loving stereotype, whether we've earned it or not.

As I said you don't have to play by other people's rules - whoever they are.

QUOTE:  I love women. I love their emotion. I love their illogic.

Whoaaa! Wrong on so many levels

QUOTE: I adore them, but I also know they know what I find to be "cool" about this culture is about as interesting to them as their talk of their friend's wedding preparations are to me.

Believe it or not there are women who also find talk of wedding preparations dull. If ( as it would seem) you are attracted to fluffy headed emotional types fair do's but don't try and pin the rap on the rest of us.

QUOTE: This is the shame of modern living, that the idea of being "civilized" means lacking the passion, and heart, that a man has and a woman does not, as a man has nothing of the fortitude of a woman who is determined, who gives birth to new life.

Again wrong on many levels. You are treating attributes which are by and large the results of nurture to nature. From previous posts I would guess that this is because like many men you are terribly romantic - and a writer to boot.

Yes, it is comfortable and emotionally satisfying to subscribe to the "Men are this Women are that" (fill in the blanks as you will) game, but ultimately it is has very little do with real life.

Abe was always one of my favourite characters by the way.

And Chuck, please don't think I have a particular downer on the working classes, I am very much an equal opportunities employer in that regard. I find the middle classes en masse equally irritating. I don't mix much with the upper class so I have to dislike them on principle.

Really it is the class system that I am opposed to, as I am to any structure that stifles an individual's true potential by saying "That's not for the likes of you"

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