Chris Hutton: And I wouldn't be opposed to having Larry the Cable Guy put away for life for his insipid "Git 'R Done" line, that so many in my blue collar town enjoy plastering all over their pickup trucks!

Roger A Ott adendumeded: Oh, I know what you mean!  The linemen on the local high school varsity football team all have sleeveless muscle shirts that say that on the back.  I cringe every time I see one.

You see, this is where America is different to Europe, as far as I am concerned.  America's class system has emerged almost solely from economics (unless you're black!), rather than entrenched feudal history or close geographical immigration.  It is interesting that this group of people are openly "Hey, this is what I think, and fuck you if you don't like it!" in their approach.  I agree with Jay Matthews in his assessment that this is what a new, economically developed country tends to look like.  Whether or not this is an ideal is a different matter altogether.

I'll just take my top hat and monocle off.  The fact that Americans have surmised this opinion of me, to me, in the chatroom, suggests that class is the key issue here, not intellect.

Every country is different. Every single one.

I come from a traditional white working class family so I feel that qualifies me to talk about it as its actually my culture and all

You get a bit of a hard time on here, Jo.

And, speaking of which, I think it is unfair on Chad Carter to repeatedly stereotype his thoughts as being those of a derided cartoon character.  Belittle his arguments if you feel capable of doing so (or if you can be arsed), but show some respect to him as a person.  I haven't seen him insult either you or Jason Fulton, Mr Reed.

Thanks Dan, I thought it was just me being paranoid.

Still, my back is broad...

Do you think Wooster is obsessed with women Malcolm?

I think he's pretty faithful to the Drones myself, mind you if you look at some of his Aunts...

So, how did you break free from the tribe to become well-read and introspective?

Being raised white and lower middle working (as opposed to NON-working) class myself I simply wondered how you found this group to be sole source of stupidity in the world.

It's my experience that ignorance crosses all racial, national and class stratas.

In fact, it may be the one human constant that we all share.

And Bertie Wooster was never really obsessed with anything except perhaps his dedication to leisure. And as Jeeves said on more than one occassion, "Sir, the working class and I are of only nodding acquaintance."

Jo, how do you "redefine" masculinity? Writers like Jack London and Hemingway had already addressed the nature of man, not the nature of being macho. That's a cliche which this modern culture has embraced wholeheartedly.

I may have misspoke though. We don't live in a feminized society. We live in a feminized culture. I wasn't specific. I am more than willing to follow a matriarch, so all you reactionary politicizers on this thread can go to hell. As far as this society goes, you are right in that men do dominate the work structure, but what is the result of their steady decline in self-image since the early 60s? A lot of angry people, a lot of reactionary people, a lot of people who are disenfranchised. I don't put any stock in "masculinity", but I also don't believe men should be converted, feminized, and if not then immediately categorized as the exact opposites of manhood, the gruff, Tool Time-loving stereotype, whether we've earned it or not.

As I've said before, men of integrity are characterized as this buffoon unless they are either of a social/economic strata that precludes that stereotype (and invites others), or until the feminized culture recognizes their worth intellectually...

The other part of this argument is that at no point have I "blamed" women. Why would I blame a woman for being a woman? I love women. I love their emotion. I love their illogic. I adore them, but I also know they know what I find to be "cool" about this culture is about as interesting to them as their talk of their friend's wedding preparations are to me. The wiring is different, but I'm also a writer, and as such I'm supposed to adhere to the current view of intellectualism and culture, which I don't and cannot.

Again, I really enjoy these differences, until I notice all around me that men in general are considered classless, anti-intellectual, and ignorant of the maps of the human heart. This is the shame of modern living, that the idea of being "civilized" means lacking the passion, and heart, that a man has and a woman does not, as a man has nothing of the fortitude of a woman who is determined, who gives birth to new life.

Jason Fulton (left) tries his best to poison his least favourite Russian with Polonium 210 in liquid form.  But Jason!  He's Swedish!

Thanks Dan. You actually stopped me from addressing Matt Reed directly. It's simply hard to dislike a guy with a Robotman avatar.