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Topic: OT: America and Anti-Intellectualism (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Jo Harvatt
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 1  

 Joe wrote:
"Anti-intellectualism", or a distaste for learning mostly through reading, isn't limited to some people from the working class. Our own dear blue-blood President is a well-known example of that.

Yes, and as I observed earlier it seems to magically transform him in the eye of the general public into what you call " a regular guy" notwithstanding his wealth and privilege.

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Jo Harvatt
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 2  

God forbid that your leader should be one of they smart alecs!

 ; )

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Jo Harvatt
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 3  

 brendan wrote:
Education
is never its own reward, unless you are being educated on fixing air
conditioners.

This is what happens when you worship Mammon.

Stuff ethics, social improvement, or the quality of life - does it make money - if not forget it

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Jacob P Secrest
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:27pm | IP Logged | 4  

 Mary Ives wrote:

<Women love this view of men until it comes time to find one to marry.
Then they want dependable, upright, men of action who will give them
multiple orgasms and healthy children and safe homes. Mr. Fantastic
from 1964 in other words.I like to believe at least boys had something to
look up to, rather than deride.>

I beg your pardon?

Ignore him, he lives in the 1950s.
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Jo Harvatt
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 5  

Sorrry about all these short and rather unfocussed posts btw - it must be me hormones!
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 6  

For the parents out there, you know you respect the opinions of someone who has successfully raised a bunch of kids over that of an PhD educated person tossing a bunch of worthless theories at you about self-esteem and control-issues and whatever psychological buzz words they're inclined to use. I've seen many a parent laugh hysterically at the stupidity that such people put forth, because they don't see any practical application of these theories.

---

While their bratty kids run amok and they wonder why.

Education doesn't equal intelligence. There are indeed plenty of people without a lick of sense who manage to get advanced degrees. There are also educated people who seem more interested in what they've learned than in thinking critically.

All that being said, I would not use those examples to dismiss academia. I still trust someone with the critical thinking skills to make it to higher education over someone with "common sense", which in my experience is not really common sense but some perspective that they've grown comfortable with.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 7  

Jo and Michael,

Your debate is some good reading.
You exchange your perspectives while refraining from exchanging
insults. Bravo!

---

See... now I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Jo, you are a big stupid head!

Now this feels like the internet.
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 8  

 

I don't see why it HAS to be exclusive, that either you're a slope-brow or an academic, in the view of the culture of America. Yet in the images we produce, that's what you get.

There doesn't seem to be any real middle ground. And it isn't A is A in this case, because most intelligent human beings are actually a combination of high and low taste. Most people are not really caricatures. But there are plenty of cliches. I think people choose to be a cliche. They grow comfortable with it, they have chosen to either defy the world or accept its terms, but in terms of culture, everyone wants to gravitate to a persona that is acceptable to somebody, so they will not be alone.

It's tiresome to see another cliched character in another dim film, a cardboard cut-out only serving to illustrate a tired premise we already know. Novels often follow a similar adherance to broad strokes on character, so no one is anything more than what they seem. If you're an ignorant mechanic in a film or book, that is what you are. If you're a power broker, you're a shallow slick-haired consumer honky. And that is it.

The problem becomes when regular human beings assume that their lives have no meaning outside of being a "character", yet they demand respect. The image becomes a reality that is reinforced by television, "reality" television at that. People who deny the power of television is completely missing the point here. People who deny the power of the images we produce, showing fathers as buffons, women as whores, children as savants, or drug addicts and murderers as deserving respect and admiration, have caved to the notion that their "reality" is the only reality. They are denying the power of the human mind to take an image and make it become real.

Our "characters" are out of hand. It's like some bizarre virus that has spread over the planet, where there is us, and there is our Dark Half. Not that the Dark Half is all evil, unlike King's novel, but that the Dark Half is a product of the imagination that has become reality. These "characters", the gangbangers, the dottering dads, the chicken-fucking rednecks, the swarthy terrorist, have consumed the national consciousness. We both validate these characters and dismiss them at the same time. They exist and yet do not exist.

What is needed is an examination of character, of what it is to live in the world, not what it seems like to a bunch of television writers and academics. In the 1970s, but starting in the 50s, there are many films and novels which sought to discover the meaning of character, whether consciously or not. These stories were an examination of what it was to live in the time, of the paranoia of an age, of a reaction to horrific violence and murder.

The "soldiers" in Iraq are just that: characters, playing soldiers, at least according to our images. They are numbers in a headline, except to their families. When this war is over, and there is a return by these soldiers to civilian life, similar to what occurred post-WW 2 and post-Vietnam, the image of the soldier that America projects right now and what will return will be two entirely different things. Post-WW 2 vets and Vietnam vets had entirely different post-war experiences, but out of both came a paranoia, a dark mindset rooted deep in the psychology of a culture. The films and books of the times studied these realities, broke down the "characters" and exposed some harsh truths about how war affects men and women, even so far for the soldiers as to what it is to be considered a "character" only and dismissed from the national consciousness.

In a sense this is what I'm thinking is happening within America in particular now. I only speculate here in a thread on a website because there's a discussion and it occurs to me. I mean that the population who believes only in the cliches and the characters that are presented to them must become culturally deficient. They are starving to death in their minds, seeking meaning in the trivial. They only see themselves for what the images tell them they are, and it becomes a grand disappointment to discover they are devoid of meaning as the images replace them.

I'm offended that the culture as it exists has chosen to herald the image as fact rather than use the image to examine the realities of our lives. I didn't create it or design it, but I'm disappointed that there's so little substance to American culture there days. Our icons blow, our philosophies are shallow, and our politics remain insipid. But fuck it, the PS3 is out!

 

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 9  

You were born in 1970 according to your profile. Aren't you basing your assessment of the past based on images and characters of those eras, rather than the "reality"?

And it's all about the Wii.
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Malcolm Savoy
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 10  

All that being said, I would not use those examples to dismiss academia.

I wouldn't either. But there's plenty of examples of well-educated idiots that end up causing more trouble than their worth. Ask a Vietnam vet about West Point graduates.

I think the working class respects intelligence and education, but they're much more concerned with the practical applications of what a person knows. Doesn't matter how many business degrees you have if you can't run a business. Doesn't matter how much military history you know if you can't keep your troops alive. You are judged by results, not how many books you've read.

Again, I point to the scene in The Aviator, where one of the most important men of the 20th Century was on the receiving end of shit from a bunch of educated wankers. Culture and philosophy and the like isn't necessary a bad thing to the working class, but they're more concerned with whether or not you can fix an air conditioner (or provide some other useful function). I've lived in the South my whole life and I've not had to explain why I enjoy reading. They see I have a good working class work ethic and what I do with my spare time is my business. I just don't make them feel like idiots when I talk to them. Most folks are reasonably bright. Maybe they don't know who the hell Kant is, but you can almost always learn something from them. One of the most humbling experiences of my life was being taking out in the wood with my father hunting. In that moment, I learned just how much I didn't know and realized that a lot of these so-called stupid people had a number of very practical skills and knowledge that I simply did not have.
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Jo Harvatt
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 11  

Michael you are a silly arse!

Blimey it's catching...

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Jo Harvatt
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 6:18am | IP Logged | 12  

 Malcolm wrote:
Ask a Vietnam vet about West Point graduates.

It was the same in WWI where the British troops were described as 'Lions led by donkeys'. I think the problem lies not so much with education per se but the class system that smooths the way for the children of those with wealth and position to get the trappings of further education however dense or ill informed they be.



 

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