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Glenn Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3095
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Posted: 11 September 2007 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 1
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"I don't think anyone is saying that you should deliver the art before payment is made, but that the customer should be able to see the art before payment is made."
Not arguing that point. Of course a customer should be able to see what they are getting before paying for it. That's why I provide not only thumbnails for approval, several in the case of some customers, but work-in-progress scans and keep all lines of communication open throughout the creation process including personal phone numbers, emails and visible message board presence. Protects the customer AND me from post-job dissatisfaction. I don't expect payment until the customer has approved the piece, states their satisfaction, and I'm ready to ship it.
Once you commission artwork you are entering into a contract for a customized item, not a product meant for mass retail consumption. Unless otherwise stated, the artist agrees to do the piece and deliver; the customer agrees to pay for it unless it significantly differs from what was agreed upon. Unless otherwise understood, it's not a deal of "I'll do this first without any deposit or retainer and if you don't like it, you don't have to pay for it and I'll just eat it or find something else to do with it."
"Your point about being able to absorb a loss finds no sympathy here. if a store can't afford to keep well stocked, then the store should close. If an artist cannot afford to take a loss from a rejected piece, then he is in the wrong business."
Bullshit. A self-employed independent contractor is not a retail establishment. He doesn't stock inventory or sell ancillary merchandise from other vendors. His income is derived from his work, so any rejected work represents business loss that can't be made up from other sources. There is no return policy on labor or time lost that could have been used on other endeavors.
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Gerry Turnbull Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 8766
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Posted: 11 September 2007 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 2
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a couple artists i have dealt with take half up front and the rest upon completion
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133516
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Posted: 11 September 2007 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 3
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With all due respect, JB, I think you're in a different position than many other artists as far as being able to absorb a loss due to customer dissatisfaction. ••• This has been my policy for as long as I have been a working artist. How many jobs do you know of that pay up front? Don't paychecks come at the end of the month? Being able to "absorb a loss" has nothing to do with it.
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Glenn Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3095
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Posted: 11 September 2007 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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"How many jobs do you know of that pay up front? Don't paychecks come at the end of the month?"
I think the difference is in being an independent contractor versus an employee. There are several jobs where it's common business practice to accept a deposit for a job before beginning work. Attorneys, for example, request retainers before providing certain services. Painting/construction services on one's house is another. Custom musical instrument builders won't build for a customer without a deposit.
Again, my point is not that one should pay for the ENTIRE job up front...but that it's not unreasonable to take a deposit as a good faith policy before beginning the job and to accept payment of the balance when the job is finished and approved. Once the customer has approved the job, why would s/he be unwilling to pay for the work?
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Pat Ditton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2007 Posts: 925
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Posted: 11 September 2007 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 5
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This raises an interesting idea for these ART boards, like CAF.
Someone could be a middle man - take payment (for those artists wanting to see the color of the money) - and hold it until the work is not only complete, but accepted.
There would be many bugs to iron out -- but it could be beneficial in some cases.
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Dan Burke Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 June 2007 Posts: 432
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Posted: 11 September 2007 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 6
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Wow, Pat, you just defined the word "escrow" without using the word!!
es·crow /n. ˈɛskroʊ, ɪˈskroʊ; v. ɪˈskroʊ, ˈɛskroʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[n. es-kroh, i-skroh; v. i-skroh, es-kroh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation Law.
–noun
1. |
a contract, deed, bond, or other written agreement deposited with a third person, by whom it is to be delivered to the grantee or promisee on the fulfillment of some condition. | –verb (used with object)
2. |
to place in escrow: The home seller agrees to escrow the sum of $1000 with his attorney. | —Idiom
3. |
in escrow, in the keeping of a third person for delivery to a given party upon the fulfillment of some condition. |
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Dan Burke Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 June 2007 Posts: 432
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Posted: 11 September 2007 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 7
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In all seriousness, I would not buy a commission without either escrow or paying no more than 50% up front.
Upon completion to satisfaction, I would be willing to pay the other half.
I give JB a ton of credit for the way he handles his commissions.
Of all the "Byrne stories" you hear out there, nary a one relates to commission for hire.
Hats off to you JB!
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Dave Aikins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 July 2007 Location: United States Posts: 2110
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Posted: 12 September 2007 at 12:26am | IP Logged | 8
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I think one major issue is just how much you're paying. Most of the commissions that I tend to get are in the $75-$150 range. Paying upfront isn't so bad at that price. $250 and up, and paying upfront would be really nerve-racking to me. At that point I would reccommend using your credit card through Paypal to have a bit of fraud support.
The main problem I've had is that so much time can pass for many commissions that you have no way to get any money back (even through paypal). I've had commission take almost two years. Thankfully, these artists were through Spencer Beck, so at least I had an agent to email.
I did lose money to Steve Lightle, and my brother would call him to periodically ask his family what was up. Steve got a free $100 from us, and all we got was the ability to mention him in commission horror story discussions...
Art quality/satisfaction is even harder to argue, as most artists don't even give you a chance to be unhappy with the image. I remeber seeing Neal Adams draw a Deadman head shot at San Diego in 2000 . As he worked, it made me nervous knowing how many hundreds of dollars this sketch cost, and if it wasn't good enough, would you tell Neal Adams that you wanted your money back? Not to metion the "virue" commission...
So you've got the money issue, you've got the art-quality issues, and you've got the shipping issues. I've had artists do the most idiotic packing short of slapping a stamp on the drawing. They show up torn and bent, and then you've got to ask for a redo, based soley on bad shipping/packaging...
Fun!
I just got a Chris Weston commission, one of the few higher priced ones that I've gotten. He asks for payment after the work is done. he emails you a rough for approval. He also emailed to see if the art had arrived. When it looked a tiny bit late (coming to Ohio from England), he started talking about redo-ing it out of concern that it was lost. It actaully showed up on time and was in great shape.
If all commissions could go like that, collecting would be a breeze.
All commissions should go like that, and it's sad that we talk about how they don't...
Sorry to rant, as those who collect have their own similar stories. However, if you're new to collecting, I hope you keep some of this stuff in mind.
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Dave Aikins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 July 2007 Location: United States Posts: 2110
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Posted: 12 September 2007 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 9
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And here's a Giordano JSA re-creation...
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Dave Aikins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 July 2007 Location: United States Posts: 2110
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Posted: 12 September 2007 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 10
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And from Phil Hester...
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8644
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Posted: 12 September 2007 at 2:43am | IP Logged | 11
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Dave, could you please tell me what artists you're getting those $75 to
$150 commissions from, so I can add them to my file of potential
artists to get work from once I'm back in the black?
My e-mail address is gmhauntedfactory@yahoo.com
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Aric Shapiro Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4349
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Posted: 12 September 2007 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 12
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Dave
Can you email me Giordano's contact info please? I'd love a commisison
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