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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133247
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 1
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And who's more condescending of their audience? The writer who thinks having Jimmy turn into a gorilla is a good idea or the writer who thinks the rape and torture of superheroines is fine family entertainment?*** I don't think there was any condescencion in the olden days. The writers and editors understood what the books were, and who the audience was, and the came up with appropriate stories. Somehow, tho, writers who grew up reading those stories wanted to "break the mold" -- even tho it was a mold that had worked fine for 30 years. It cannot be simple coincidence, can it, that the accelerating drop in sales corresponds to the turn away from "traditional" stories. Was it goofy and silly to have Batman fighting aliens? You bet! Did the guys who wrote those stories think so? No way! And those books sold 5 and 10 times what the "hot" books sell today. "Look! We sold 100,000 copies! We're a huge success!" "Yeah? Well check it out, d00d -- BATMAN was selling three times that many copies in the 60s and was almost canceled! Sad thing is, there is no way to turn the clock back. We have chased away that audience, and in so doing turned comics into everything parents (and Dr. Wertham) used to say they were. "Honest, we promise there is no rape or anal sex in this issue!" is not exactly the best line with which to sell comicbooks.
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7526
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | 2
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I was left wondering what exactly happened when DC claimed they were going back to classic heroics... and Black Adam dismembers a wannabe terrorist on panel. Is this something Julie Schwartz used to do that I'm just not remembering, or are they mistakenly channeling Gaines instead?
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14852
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 3
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Exactly how many scientists is "many"?
---
The entire science faculty of Miskatonic University, obviously.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | 4
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I was really pissed at Miskatonic U for rejecting my college application. But then, time heals all wounds.
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Jeff Lommel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1039
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | 5
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See Chuck, that's why I liked so many of the late 60s/early 70s stuff. They were still good clean fun, had real heroes being heroic in them, and were able to entertain both a small child, like I was then, and an older reader, like now. I still like those stories, and can share them with my kids, unlike 99% of comics today. I guess what I'm getting at is, again, that happy medium, where it's possible to grow the market the way it's supposed to grow, with young readers, and not alienate the older fans who have been reading forever. There HAS to be something that can be done, but it's clear that the big 2 don't want to do it, particularly Marvel and their talking head brooding books.
edited to remove excessive use of the word "medium"
Edited by Jeff Lommel on 13 July 2006 at 8:34pm
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Jeff Lommel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1039
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 6
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Tom Brevoort wrote a lengthy discourse on the fall of the comic book cover recently. Saw the link on Newsarama, it might be of interest to some here.
Brevoort blog
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Eric Lund
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2074
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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But in all honesty this trend started in the 80's with Crisis and the work of Dark Knight....
When DC threw away Batman and Superman being friends and broke apart the JLA having the core three of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman because it was more "realistic" that Superman and Batman hated each other and multiple Earths were too confusing that started the death knell..
They in affect destroyed the Silver Age and its charm.
Would Superman and Batman be friends? I think so..Should they? YES!.... In my mind DC has spin spinning out of control since then and even Marvel stayed away from that type of character ret-con till a decade later....
Alan Moore's vision for sure inspired imatation but the cracks in the foundation had already been struck. Pre-Crisis DC was a great place....Crisis was the direct result of a company catering to an aging fanbase that thought Krypto was silly and Batman too cheesey....
I think that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman all could of had face lifts without having to destroy who each of them were.... Yes George Perez did a fantastic job and Miller and Byrne but there was no need to destroy the JLA in the process of destroy the Superman and Batman team... Those characters might not see eye to eye on all things but friends often don't and are still friends...
Neal Adams Batman was just as dark and cool as anything that was done afterwords...and In many ways I wish that both Dark Knight and Crisis had never been written.
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Ray Earles
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 121
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 9:03pm | IP Logged | 8
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Do you guys think there is room for stories depicting these characters in a host of different ways? That is to say, is continuity so important that we can't have "psycho Batman" _and_ "traditional Batman" stories coming out at the same time?
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | 9
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I don't think continuity is that important at all. But I do think
psycho-Batman is a mischaracterization to begin with, and ultimately
appeals to a relatively small crowd who aren't really interested in the
character anyways.
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Jeff Lommel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1039
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | 10
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There is a huge problem there though. Let's assume that the industry began trying to draw youthful readers in again by offering a mainstream line of comics featuring all their classic heroes in a true all-ages format. Now, let's throw in your scenario. If you have Batman appearing in a book meant for adults, and Batman appearing in a comic meant for kids, are parents going to know the difference? If I didn't tell her, my wife probably wouldn't know that the kids shouldn't read 52 or Infinite Crisis (graphic violence), to name a couple of examples. To most parents, a comic book is kids stuff, period, especially one with Superman or Batman. I don't think it's assuming too little of civilians to say that, I think it's just the reality.
Again, this whole premise is based on opening the market to a wider variety of audience. As it exists today, there really is no point to having multiple iterations of characters.
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Ray Earles
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 121
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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But we already do have multiple iterations of characters. Witness the Ultimate, All-Star and MAX lines. It would be relatively easy to age-label comics just as other forms of media are already labeled.
Do you think all comics should be appropriate for all ages? Why hold comics to this standard and not other forms?
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 13 July 2006 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 12
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Comics need not be just for a specific group. But superheroes created for all-ages audiences should be for all-ages.
Put it this way, should Archie comics try to sell more books by putting
out "R", "NC-17" and pornographic versions of their books?
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Topic Closed)
