QUOTE: What is interesting though, is how good it is, and how much cool, weird stuff there is there. I definitely don't feel that this is Kirby not on the top of his game because he was getting old, I feel that it reads more like Kirby's not on top of his game because they tied one hand behind his back, and weren't quite letting him be "Kirby." It's a different kind of thing as a result. One of the things that fascinates me, is that whenever I get stuck on a plot point on Eternals, I go back and look at it, and it's there. It'll be in a line of dialogue or a small scene that makes you realize he knew far more about these characters than ever made it on to the page. I'm actually far more impressed by the Eternals now since I've started two write it than I was when I first read it through and was getting ready to write it. I though, initially, that there was all this stuff that Jack hadn't figured out, but now I know - he had it all figured out.

I'd forgotten about the Darwyn Cooke Spirit. And I'll check it out for sure. But again, I'm left with the sensation of "Cooke needs to be doing something else. Something like JLA."

Not saying the Eternals are untouchable. But WHAT'S THE POINT? Who's screaming for Eternals stories, period? Would Kirby approve? Would he just suck up like a car salesman, like Lee, and cheer?

And it's obvious that Kirby didn't create the Eternals "for" Marvel. He brought the idea that had floundered in DC with the hopes of continuing to follow the themes he found interesting. He demanded creative control to get a vision across. He was forced to integrate the Eternals with the rest of the MU. THAT does not sound like a guy who'd fork over his characters to Neil Gaiman for his version.

And yes, the Eternals are very closely associated with Kirby, to the point where producing a comic without Kirby about them is meaningless. Devoid of meaning.

Even the Spirit, in light of Cooke's "ongoing" series, could be argued as larger than the creator. Like Superman, symbolic, like Doc Savage representative of another time. The Spirit is a functioning archetype that creators can tap into. I probably downplayed the importance of the character. Still, I'd rather Cooke was on The Shadow or something. There's no comics precedent for the Shadow. The Spirit IS comics. It'd be like anyone else but Joe Kubert drawing Sgt. Rock. It just shouldn't happen. Ever.

These Kirby solo universes, of the New Gods and the Eternals, just seem without merit unless Kirby's working on them. Their respective worlds are so insulated, what else is there to say about them that hasn't already been said?

Now if Gaiman and JR2 wanted to take Orion or the Reject and use the specific characters in a new setting with the HISTORY of Kirby's thoughts behind them, THAT would be interesting and maybe inspired. But writing ABOUT the workings of a universe Kirby created is akin to assuming Gaiman knows what Kirby would have "intended".

Byrne took a single concept from the Kirby series, the realization of Jason Blood as more than a "mask" worn by the Demon, and created a series around it. If Gaiman is plucking a conceit from the universe of the Eternals to tell a tale that he longs to tell (like my fascination with the relationship between the Reject and Kharkis from Kirby's run, say), then I'm 100% behind it.

Chad Carter:  Not saying the Eternals are untouchable. But WHAT'S THE POINT? Who's screaming for Eternals stories, period? Would Kirby approve? Would he just suck up like a car salesman, like Lee, and cheer?

I don't know if anyone is clamoring for more Eternals, but people are clamoring for more Gaiman and more JR Jr.  It is a dream team, and I suspect Eternals is going to sell very well. 

And it's obvious that Kirby didn't create the Eternals "for" Marvel.

How is it obvious?  I never knew that and I read Eternals first run.

He brought the idea that had floundered in DC with the hopes of continuing to follow the themes he found interesting. He demanded creative control to get a vision across. He was forced to integrate the Eternals with the rest of the MU. THAT does not sound like a guy who'd fork over his characters to Neil Gaiman for his version.

How long was Kirby in the business by this point?  He wasn't working on creator-owned material here.  He sold these ideas to Marvel.  Why is it I've never read people anguishing about Roy Thomas' sledge-hammering the Eternals into the Marvel Universe in the pages of Thor, yet somehow Gaiman and John Romita Jr. are getting villianized?

And yes, the Eternals are very closely associated with Kirby, to the point where producing a comic without Kirby about them is meaningless. Devoid of meaning.

Bullshit.  If the Fourth World can be continued, then Eternals can.

These Kirby solo universes, of the New Gods and the Eternals, just seem without merit unless Kirby's working on them. Their respective worlds are so insulated, what else is there to say about them that hasn't already been said?

That's crazy talk.  Eternals is serial fiction.  If Fantastic Four can still be going today, then Eternals can have a few more stories.

Now if Gaiman and JR2 wanted to take Orion or the Reject and use the specific characters in a new setting with the HISTORY of Kirby's thoughts behind them, THAT would be interesting and maybe inspired. But writing ABOUT the workings of a universe Kirby created is akin to assuming Gaiman knows what Kirby would have "intended".

Yet even in its incomplete form, The Last Galactus Story is consider classic and John Byrne's summary of it's ending, IMO, is brilliant.  Your statement condems that work.  Phooey, I say.

Byrne took a single concept from the Kirby series, the realization of Jason Blood as more than a "mask" worn by the Demon, and created a series around it. If Gaiman is plucking a conceit from the universe of the Eternals to tell a tale that he longs to tell (like my fascination with the relationship between the Reject and Kharkis from Kirby's run, say), then I'm 100% behind it.

I'll be happy if Gaiman and JR Jr. put out an Eternals story that feels like an Eternals story. This is one book I'd be willing to order the trade of.

Seems like the concept Gaiman's using to tell the story is similar to his Anansi Boys novel, no? I didn't read that, but the core concept seems similar (trying not to create spoilers).

No.