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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 1
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What Matt said. And the fact that there are "juvenile," "regular," "ultimate,"
and at one point "mature" versions of these characters just underscores
what's wrong with this -- these characters were created for general
audiences, to be enjoyed by young readers on one level and older readers
on different levels as appropriate, without the need for multiple
versions.
JB's work is a perfect example of this. Look at his FF run as a perfect
example. He tackled some pretty heady subject matter there (abuse,
miscarriage, rape), but always did so with the understanding that people
of all ages would be reading, so he wrote the book appropriately.
And let's not forget the world of difference between changing the
characters and giving the illusion of change. One writes for a specific
audience, the other for any.
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Mig Da Silva
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Location: Portugal
Posts: 900
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 2
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QUOTE:
And I don't think the decline in sales or quality is intrinsically tied into the fact that the characters have been changed per se.
I think you may be attributed, if you wanted to argue this, to the fact that the properties have been aimed at older ever dwindling audiences. |
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Arent they all and one the same?
Haven't the characters been changed so they could target an older, dwindling, audience?
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Dennis Calero
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 3
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Now wait a minute, what is intrinsically (there's that word again) wrong with having different versions of the same character?
In fact, wouldn't that make it easier to get to the state of affairs you guys seems to want? What if there was an ongoing Spidey title that was aimed at young readers that was eternally the Lee and Ditko Spidey forever and ever amen, and another title that was an aging Spidey dealing with stuff in real time? I mean if both books served their audiences well, what would be the problem?
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John Mietus
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 4
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Sorry, man, but I still fail to see the necessity for (or appeal of) an aging
Spider-Man at all.
Edited by John Mietus on 18 June 2006 at 12:42pm
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Mig Da Silva
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 900
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
| Well, come on, no one can MAKE someone sell a product if they don't want to. |
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I'm not forcing anyone to do it. But i am of the opinion that having a perfectly viable product and not exploring it and advancing their business on it is somewhat nonsensical.
Spider-Man, even as the core as it was created is perfectly viable, creatively and financially, as the successful movies proved. Why wouldn't they explore the product and serve, at the same time, their costumers who are willing to part with money?
Their most certainly not forced to.
QUOTE:
| My point was that maybe books should be allowed to die, have their stories told, and then make them hardbacks to be enjoyed later. I mean, the LOTR is the LOTR and there isn't much material after that. And that's fine. Would it be nice to have more adventures of Frodo, but I think maybe the best stories have a def beginning middle and end, and that means characters too. |
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That's why LOTR is a book. And Spider-Man is a Comic. Some people prefer it your way, and are consumers of books. Some people prefer it the Comics way, and their consumers of Comics. Some people may prefer both, and they're consumers of both.
Comics were not created with a finite purpose. And it's somewhat egregious for people who didn't create, nor Comics as a medium, nor the characters, to condemn them to death by decree.
If they did so with Characters they themselves created it'd be intelectually fine with me.
I believe CrossGen tried your idea. I believe they filed for bankruptcy. As far as i can recall.
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Dennis Calero
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 6
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What theoretically is the need for any Spidey book, or any product that doesn't directly support life, outside of the fact that people want to buy them?
If you don't see the appeal, that's totally cool, but IF, and I'm saying IF, there were two lines of books, both doing well, what would be your problem with that? I may not like Britney Spears, but as long as people buy that stuff, I'm sure she'll continue to make it and I have no moral or ethical objection to that.
Of course, if the books don't sell, that's another issue.
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Dennis Calero
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 7
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Mig, you're being disengenuous (spelling). CrossGen's failure can be attributed to many many things, but there's nothing to indicate they went out to have a series of books that would end at some finite point, so respectfully, you're not making any sense with that point.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 8
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Agreed, JM. Why segment the audience when what Marvel did so well for so many years was write good, all-ages stories that sold in the millions? Segmenting, paring down, chopping up and parsing out a young SM, a teen SM, a twenty-something SM and a 50-year-old SM makes no sense to me. Do we see that with the Peanuts? We saw it a little with Archie, where one title was the gang as Peanuts-aged characters, but it didn't last. Do we see the audience segmented for Harry Potter? For John Grisham characters? Each written for a different segment of the population? No. All-ages should be all-ages, just as Warner Brothers continues to market its characters in an all-ages way no matter if they are WB babies, the cartoon shorts of the 30-70s, Animaniacs or the new fall WB show. They aren't making adult versions of Bugs so that adults can not feel guilty about watching him. They understand that their properties should attract the widest audience possible, as they have always done. I see no reason at all why that model, which was in place at Marvel for more years than it wasn't (and where the titles were selling in the millions before the speculator boom), shouldn't be continued instead of parsing your characters to death.
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Dennis Calero
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 9
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Matt, what I'm saying is that the ulimtate arbirter of what works is sales, and you guys are putting forth certain principles as if they will always work, and it simply isn;t true. Things can work any number of ways.
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Mig Da Silva
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Posts: 900
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
Now wait a minute, what is intrinsically (there's that word again) wrong with having different versions of the same character?
In fact, wouldn't that make it easier to get to the state of affairs you guys seems to want? What if there was an ongoing Spidey title that was aimed at young readers that was eternally the Lee and Ditko Spidey forever and ever amen, and another title that was an aging Spidey dealing with stuff in real time? I mean if both books served their audiences well, what would be the problem? |
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None, but as of now, it's pretty clear that the "Aging Spider-Man" is cannibalizing "Spider-Man."
In fact, quite uncanny, the version that was supposed to be "Ultimate" is now the more classical one, and it's Amazing Spider-Man which goes through changes can can be all labelled "Ultimate."
If they were capable of maintaining editorial consitency, it'd be ok, it already happened in the past, with the 2099 titles (those, interestingly, enough, also failed in the long run).
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Dennis Calero
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 11
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"In fact, quite uncanny, the version that was supposed to be "Ultimate" is now the more classical one, and it's Amazing Spider-Man which goes through changes can can be all labelled "Ultimate."
"
I don't necc disagree with that, except of course the Bendis book is techincaly a relaunch. Maybe characters need to be relaunched every generation.
"If they were capable of maintaining editorial consitency, it'd be ok, it already happened in the past, with the 2099 titles (those, interestingly, enough, also failed in the long run). "
Well, see, this is my point, ultimately, quality is the issue, not following arbitrary edicts of structure, or how we feel comics should always be. I mean, how did people who read comics in the 40's feel about comics in the 80's? That would interesting to hear. I suspect it might be akin to how some of you feel about comics now.
Edited by Dennis Calero on 18 June 2006 at 12:51pm
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Mig Da Silva
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| Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
| Sorry, man, but I still fail to see the necessity for (or appeal of) an aging Spider-Man at all. |
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It is, admitedly uncanny, that some only accept Spider-Man, if he stops being Spider-Man at all.
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Topic Closed)
