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Topic: The problem with fans and Spider-Man, in a nutshell (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Mietus
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 1  

 Dennis Calero wrote:
The problem is, there is an issue with keep a
character and his envoronment exactly the same. It gets stale and you
easily fall into self-parody. Ideally, I'd liek to see characters have a 10 yr
run and then fall by the wayside, tell their story and then go away,
making room for new characters.


See, that only applies to you as an individual reader. When you look at it
in the greater context of "These books are expected to have a readership
turnover rate of every five years or so, so that what was stale to the older
readers is still new to the younger ones," that doesn't apply.

So the key here is, when a character's stories grow stale to you, you
move on and let new people discover the character.

See how it's supposed to work now?
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 2  

Exactly, John. Couldn't have said it better myself.  Why does the character have to change and/or go away?  Why can't readers be grownup enough to understand that when they get tired of a character, convention, or conceit, it's they who should move on to other things rather than require the material to "keep up with them"?  For the life of me, I'll never understand that mentality.
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 3  

No, respectfully, you see it happen in TV series all the time, or at least you used to when you find the writers creatign all sorts of silly reasons why the characters saty basically the same and in the same dynamic.  It gets old.

Maybe you're right in the sense that properties meant for younger readers should stay enternally in their current state.  But then again, who's to say that the public is served by having the same charactyers dominate the market forever.

I'd prefer to see new characters generated and interesting new stories. 

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John Mietus
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 4  


 QUOTE:
No, respectfully, you see it happen in TV series all the time


Like on the Simpsons? (Other shows don't apply because they have actors
who age. Comic (and cartoon) characters only age artificially.)


 QUOTE:
I'd prefer to see new characters generated and interesting new
stories.


And as far as I know, no one is stopping you from buying them, Dennis.
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 5  

Relax man, were just talking, why are you being so aggresive?

And sure it can work the way you're saying but who's to say that's the better way, that's your opinion.  No one's stopping you from buying only properties that say forever the same, like Archie.

 

We're talking about our preferences and our opinions, so chill.  Don't act like one point of view is an objective fact that can be proven, because it isn't.

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John Mietus
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 6  

Didn't realize I was coming across as aggressive, Dennis, and if you thought
that then I sincerely apologize. All I'm saying is that super hero comics --
well, the mainstream comics from DC and Marvel -- were created to be
those properties and it's when the attitude that they had to change and grow
crept in, that's when they started to decline in popularity, sales, and quality.

(And don't bring up the early Marvel changes -- as has been noted several
times on this board, Stan Lee didn't think the titles would last, and once he
realized the Marvel titles were in for the long haul, he halted the time
progression and aging. It was only subsequent fans-turned-pros who
ignored that and continued the process.)
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Steve Horton
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 7  

Why must so many users start out being confrontational? You just get off on the wrong foot and end up not lasting long.

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Mig Da Silva
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 8  


 QUOTE:
The problem is, there is an issue with keep a character and his envoronment exactly the same. It gets stale and you easily fall into self-parody. Ideally, I'd liek to see characters have a 10 yr run and then fall by the wayside, tell their story and then go away, making room for new characters.


Welcome.

And what's stopping publishers from launching new books, people buying them, and the people who still like the idea still being able to buy the old character?

I think that happens with Spider-Man, and Wolverine. The latter became more famours afterwords, the people who prefer the more chronologically modern hero buy it, and the people who still like - or youngsters who discover it for the first time - Spider-Man buy it.

They're not mutually exclusive, and it seems wasteful to throw a character in the trash when people still like them. The Spider-Man movies seemed to do well, even with a mainstream, mundane, audience.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 9  

Just an FYI, but you won't find too much love for the "age" and "growth" of all-ages, mainstream superheroes published by DC and Marvel on this board, Dennis.  Many here, myself included, are of the mind that "age" and "growth" is fine in creator-owned series, and there's enough of them out there for you to read, that characters created for a specific audience (all-ages) should remain that way in the same way that the Peanuts characters never left grade school in 50 years, the Archie gang is eternally in high school, and the Simpsons haven't aged a day since their introduction in strip or television form.  There's more than enough material created every year for adult readers to get their Jones reading about aging superheroes in a realistic world, or Vertigo titles where the conceit is mainly about characters aging and growing in their own world, that it seems rather selfish to me to also require that all-ages mainstream superhero characters also "age" and "grow" so those self-same adult fans can enjoy them...althewhile robbing a younger audience of the same joy of discovery we had when we were their age.  Me?  Yeah, I call that selfish. The real mark of maturity is realizing when something isn't for you any more, so you stop reading, leaving what you once loved for the enjoyment of others who still do.
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Mig Da Silva
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
And sure it can work the way you're saying but who's to say that's the better way, that's your opinion. No one's stopping you from buying only properties that say forever the same, like Archie.


Well, he doesn't want Archie. He wants Spider-Man. I'd like that too. I'm guessing lots of people would. I see no point, other than sadism, in refusing to sell that product.

As for new ideas, well that's what new books and new characters are for. If not, if constantly based on past work, the new ideas, aren't either new nor ideas.
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 11  

Accepted John, it did feel that way, but if I was wrong I was wrong.  But I did feel that I was hearing an opinion, I understood it, and responded and then was being told basically if I had that opinion I was wrong, regardless of the merits of anything I said.  But again, if I was wrong, I was wrong.

And Steve, I wasn't being confrontational but simply asking why someone was being confrontational with me.  It's not the same thing, especially since I was civil.

And I don't think the decline in sales or quality is intrinsically tied into the fact that the characters have been changed per se.

I think it may be attributed, if you wanted to argue this, to the fact that the properties have been aimed at older ever dwindling audiences.  But I happen to think it's also much more due to the fact that the thrill I got in comics when I was a kid 20 yrs ago, kids can get now from film and video games.  Spiderman the movie was as thrilling visually as any comic.  Superman the Movie was GREAT, and I loved it, but it still wasnt up tomy imagination. 

I hate to say it, but maybe other media have caught up to doing what comics do best. Maybe.



Edited by Dennis Calero on 18 June 2006 at 12:36pm
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 12  

"Well, he doesn't want Archie. He wants Spider-Man. I'd like that too. I'm guessing lots of people would. I see no point, other than sadism, in refusing to sell that product. "

Well, come on, no one can MAKE someone sell a product if they don't want to. 



"As for new ideas, well that's what new books and new characters are for. If not, if constantly based on past work, the new ideas, aren't either new nor ideas. "

My point was that maybe books should be allowed to die, have their stories told, and then make them hardbacks to be enjoyed later.  I mean, the LOTR is the LOTR and there isn't much material after that.  And that's fine.  Would it be nice to have more adventures of Frodo, but I think maybe the best stories have a def beginning middle and end, and that means characters too.

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