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Topic: The problem with fans and Spider-Man, in a nutshell (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 1  

It's not just marketing though.  The rating on Amazing changes from one month to the next, for one thing.  Would it really be that difficult to do one Spider-Man book that appeals to just about anyone interested in the character, regardless of their age?

And yeah, they're the same visually, but Peter Parker is a different character, with different experiences in the versions I mentioned.  So even if an uninitiated picked up SMLovesMJ and Ultimate Spider-Man there'd be quite a bit of confusion.  If the character changes from one media to the next, that's one thing (not ideal, mind you), but if it changes from one new comic book to the next new comic book, that's just not smart marketing.

Another example.  Once there was a burger franchise called Hardee's.  Basically it was the fourth big burger restaurant after McDs, BK, and Wendy's.  But where those three restaurants had very strict guidelines for their franchise, Hardee's didn't.  They'd sell a franchise and let folks do just about whatever they wanted with it.  If they wanted to carry Coke instead of Pepsi that was fine.  If they wanted to toast their buns or leave them untoasted that was fine, too.  So what happened?  Hardee's is virtually non-existent now, primarily because a customer who ate at Hardee's in their hometown could go on vacation, stop in a Hardees in the next state over, and have a completely different version of  a cheeseburger.  When you walk into a McDonalds anywhere in the US you're going to get your food prepared exactly the same as every other McDonalds.  People count on that.  So if a casual reader picks up Ultimate Spider-Man one day on his lunch break and likes it enough to want to read more Spider-Man and goes back the next day an picks up a copy of Sensational Spider-Man, he's likely to be confused, and feel disappointed.

Marketing isn't enough.  You can't really market, "Hey everybody, there's five different versions of Spider-Man out there.  Here's how to figure out which one's for you!  And, by the way, if you're interested in any of our other characters, be sure to find out how many versions there are, and which version is right for you!"

Slightly OT: I know a lot of this seems inconsistent with statements I've made in other threads about my not expecting consistency with the characters, etc., but it's a case of What I Like isn't necessarily What's Best For The Characters/Industry.
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 2  

Matt relax, I'm just trying to keep it light, please don't misread my tone.

He looks the same only younger?  Maybe, but again, current Spidey (sans new costume) and Ditko Spidey look and act far more similarly.  If anything, your prolbem is with their disperate circumstances.

How would a pic "crappy" or not, tell you anything about the action of voice of the character? 

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 3  

Dennis, the fact that Daffy hasn't changed in over 50 years, and doesn't look like he's going to change in the near or distant future, isn't having it both ways.  WB found a characterization they liked and that sold and has stuck with it for over half a century.  Marvel had a characterization they liked and sold gangbusters, but they "aged" and "grew" the character so much that now they have to create different, alternate titles to try and get the original magic back.  You don't see it that way, you don't think that's a problem and that segmenting a character to death for different audiences is cool, fine.  I don't agree and that is where, I'm afraid, we'll have to part company on this particular subject.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 4  

Dennis: Matt, you're trying to imply that somehow the change between the 30's and 40's somehow doesn't count and the rest proves your point that change isn't good.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't say, yes Daffy is different fronm here to here, but FROM HERE ON he's the same and thus I'm right.  That just doesn;t make sense.

***

He's not trying to imply it-- that's the way it is.  He just proved it to you.
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

"So if a casual reader picks up Ultimate Spider-Man one day on his lunch break and likes it enough to want to read more Spider-Man and goes back the next day an picks up a copy of Sensational Spider-Man, he's likely to be confused, and feel disappointed."

In totally understand your point, but your analogy would make more sense if someone read two issues of Ultimate SPiderman and got two different characters.  Your example is more akin to someone walking into Pizza Hut express and expecting to get everything they can get at a real Pizza Hut, which I can also see as being a problem, so I'm not totally disagreeing with you.

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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | 6  

"He's not trying to imply it-- that's the way it is.  He just proved it to you.
"

How?

His point: characters should stay consistant.

His example: Daffy Duck

But Daffy signigicantly changed early in his development, and in fact, has had different iterations marketed to different age groups.

He would have proven it by using a character that has NEVER changed.  But that just doesn't exist!

Not to like, bring out a nuclear bomb, since we are where we are, but I could argue (I'm not sure how succesfully but I can) that JB's Supes was a HUGELY different character than the previous iteration.  And not to smooch behind, but that's what drove me to try out a character that I had previously not been interested in. 

I was not interested in a Superman who could move planets around, had 17 diff versions of kryptonite, a dog, a horse, etc etc.  But I was interested in JB's more down to earth version.  Some people might not have liked it, that's fine.  But whether it was a good or a bad thing is totally dependent on your personal point of view, not some objective quantifiable principal.



Edited by Dennis Calero on 18 June 2006 at 8:13pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | 7  

His point: in recent memory therer are many characters that haven't changed for 50 plus years. 

His example: Daffy Duck (with proof).

The underlying point that you are working so hard to miss: consistency of character is a positive tool for building a fan base.  Daffy Duck has been successful to the tune of millions of fans as he is now for over 50 years.  Spider-Man's current sales barely tip 300,000 counting all of his titles.

You'd be powerless to argue accurately that JB's changes to Superman were anything but window-dressing and eliminating ret-cons.  Anyone who hadn't bought a Superman comic before coming to JB's would find everything they knew about the character firmly in place: strange being from another planet, with powers far beyond those of mortal men, desguised as Clark Kent, mild mannered reporter-- fighting for truth, justice and the good of all mankind. 
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 8  

They see a comic book that says "Spider-Man" on the cover, and as you pointed out, the characters look the same:



By your argument they should realize that these are, in fact different characters, and shouldn't be surprised that they're different.  But why is that?  The books have slightly different titles, but then, so do Amazing and FNSM and they're the same character.  They look the same.

I think we forget sometimes how little the general public knows about how comics work.  Most of the non-comic readers I know don't even realize that Spider-Man and Superman are published by two different companies, let alone the complexities of different titles, different issue numbers, different continuities, etc.  I started reading comics when I was 11 (I'm 31 now) and while there were multiple Spider-Man books, they were fairly self-contained and featured the exact same character with the same shared history.  It's not like that anymore.  And most folks aren't going to have the patience and knowledge required to read Spider-Man  (not to mention the various other multi-title, multi-continuity superheroes.)
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | 9  

Matt, baby, it's unfair to make me repeat points I've already made.

If your contention is that these two products, which are meant for different consumers, are confusing, then that would be a problem in MARKETING.  The consumer ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be led to the correct product that meets their needs, this is true of any kind of product.  Like the current line of Conan YA novels Tor is currently producing, aimed squarley at the pre-teen market.

Whether or not this is a problem is not the issue at hand.  You SEEM to be saying, and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, that because in your opinion the marketing of these titles is problematic, M***** should abandon any plan to offer different iterations of its characters because there is no way imaginable to clearly market these two products to their appropriate audiences.

If this is your point, I just can't buy it.

If it isn't, then please correct me.

(And to be fair, I believe the piece on the right is a promo piece mean to promote the character in general.  I could be wrong and probably am.)

 

(btw, I beg all of you to please forgive my constant edits, I apparantly spell as well as the average chimp.  But I do smell better)



Edited by Dennis Calero on 18 June 2006 at 8:30pm
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 10  

My main issue with your point is essentially, How do you convey, through marketing, that there are multiple versions of the character, that the versions live in different worlds, have different histories, but are the same character?  Assuming that there will be different versions targeted to different readers, there's two problems (in my opinion).  One, you're assuming the ideal situation (a well-informed and helpful comic shop and/or direct market salesperson).  Two, it shouldn't be necessary.  We had one Spider-Man for almost 40 years.  It's only the last 5 or so that Marvel felt the need for different versions (all of which are closer to where Spider-Man started than the mainstream version is today).  I'm not saying that Spider-Man didn't change over that 40 years, but it was a single character changing, not one version changing and others not changing at all or changing in different ways.

In your Conan example you're talking about a young Conan who grows up to be the Conan that everyone is familiar with.  That's not the case with the different versions of Spider-Man.

The piece on the right is a promo piece.  Couldn't find a decent Sensational cover.
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Dennis Calero
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 11  

How do you convey, through marketing, that there are multiple versions of the character, that the versions live in different worlds, have different histories, but are the same character? 

You obviously feel that this hasn't been done well enough or at all with the MU.  Maybe, maybe not.  But it's not impossible.  And if it can be done, then that would be a good thing not a bad one.

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John Mietus
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 12  

The point is, Dennis, it shouldn't be necessary.
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