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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35945
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | 1
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Mig Da Silva wrote:
Now i ask. Why should M***** or DC move into the direction these 2, once 3 (IDW,DH,CrossGen), are going? |
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Never, ever have I said that they should. I have only been saying that there is, in fact, an audience out there for non-superhero, finite and continuing comic books, as well as licensed product. Never said that Marvel or DC should emulate Dark Horse, IDW, or CrossGen. I've only been countering your original notion that CrossGen failed because their series were finite (which most were not), that they didn't star heroes, and that they were written by Millar/Bendis/Moore wannabes. If you've ever read anything that I've ever written on any JB board over the last six years, you'd never question where I stand with regard to "age" and "growth" of all-ages mainstream heroes at Marvel and DC.
As far as the market not wanting finite concepts, get back to me after you've looked at the sales of SANDMAN, 100 BULLETS, and Y: THE LAST MAN (to name just a few) in trade. SANDMAN, in particular, has never been out-of-print, regularly outselling most other TPB. Again, it's a gross generalization to make a point with having anything to back it up.
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 2
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Mig: Superheroes that age, grow, and change don't work.
See, if you changed "don't" to "haven't" and "work" to "worked" I would agree with you completely.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 3
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Matt (Reed), just bang your head against a brick wall. It's faster and you'll
get the same headache.
Edited by John Mietus on 18 June 2006 at 4:44pm
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35945
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 4
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Mig Da Silva wrote:
Here's the point i make:
"Super-heroes that "age", "grow" and "change" don't work." |
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I'd qualify that by saying all-ages mainstream superheroes at Marvel and DC, not the superhero genre in general. Creator-owned concepts where the conceit is an aging superhero in a realistic world, I have no problem with nor would I ever say that those concepts don't work. I would, however, say they don't work with characters that were expressly created to be all-ages, with the conceit being that they don't age so that generation after generation can enjoy them. In other words, they're akin to the Peanuts, Archie, and WB characters, to name only a few. Personally, I like ASTRO CITY, a concept with a conceit that the heroes age and grow. It's Busiek's work and world and he can do with his characters as he pleases.
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | 5
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I know, but Mig's actually seemed pretty reasonable today...
Unless you were talking to Matt Reed, in which case, nevermind.
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Dennis Calero Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2006 Posts: 504
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 6
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Creatively, I think some of the New Universe titles worked just fine. So did the earlt Valiant titles. Actually the Valiants sold pretty well, so it has worked.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 7
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Eh, it really applies to anyone who tries to reason with him.
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 8
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Was there much change over the course of the New Universe or Valiant? Either way (and I honestly am curious) in they may have worked creatively, but obviously not financially.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | 9
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Why did Valiant implode? I thought they did well financially at the beginning.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35945
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 10
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Dennis Calero wrote:
Creatively, I think some of the New Universe titles worked just fine. So did the earlt Valiant titles. Actually the Valiants sold pretty well, so it has worked. |
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In the case of the former, different line, different conceit. In the case of the latter, different company and characters altogether. They were created, in both cases, to be different with new superhero characters than those of Marvel and DC proper. In that respect, I have no problem with the age and growth in those specific universes or line of titles. What I do have a problem with is grafting that idea onto characters who were never created to "age" and "grow" in the first place all in an attempt to keep an aging fan base.
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Mig Da Silva Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 900
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
Never, ever have I said that they should. |
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I know, but Dennis was. At least that's what i understood with "why shouldn't Spider-Man age".
QUOTE:
I have only been saying that there is, in fact, an audience out there for non-superhero, finite and continuing comic books, as well as licensed product. |
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Never did i disagreed with this, but simply implied that since CrossGen doesn't do heroes - or any other of the publishers\maga out there - this (model) doesn't in any way shape or form help M****.
QUOTE:
As far as the market not wanting finite concepts, get back to me after you've looked at the sales of SANDMAN, 100 BULLETS, and Y: THE LAST MAN (to name just a few) in trade. SANDMAN, in particular, has never been out-of-print, regularly outselling most other TPB. Again, it's a gross generalization to make a point with having anything to back it up. |
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Does this somehow show us that we should use their model - of Spider-Man "aging" and "rebooting every decade" and thus being finite or repeatedly finite - on Amzing Spider-Man? Because that's what was contradicting Dennis with.
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James Hanson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2006 Posts: 2396
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 12
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In all honesty, I think some people just don't want to agree. I am in
complete agreement with the thinking that suggests Superman,
Spider-Man, Batman, etc. are all ages characters in the vein of Peter
Pan, Peanuts, Mickey Mouse, etc. Who's more interested in flashy
costumes and superpowers--kids or adults?
Look at a child's reaction to Superman and then an average adult's. Which one of these guys should we try and sell Superman to?
Trying to market superhero comics to the average adult is like trying to market Newsweek to an 8 year old. What's the point?
But, there are people who aren't going to agree with the logic. These
are the people still buying most Marvel and DC books as they are now,
it's apparently a product they wish to purchase, you're not going to
convince someone that what they like is wrong.
The weird thing is, these comics for adults? Find a normal adult that
can actually read and understand one. I heard a story somewhere (maybe
this board?) about an adult Superman fan feeling nostalgic and
collecting various Superman DVDs and decided to try the comics again.
Couldn't even begin to understand what was happening and quit.
Who knows. Maybe the market will finally need to collapse, and then a
company will come along and think about selling superheroes to children
and comics can live again.
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