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Topic: JB: Curt Swan, Post Crisis (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Jon Godson
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 1  

Whether it's fair or not, people's taste change. I first discovered Swan on
Superman and Action in the late 70s, but Swan had become associated
with bland stories because of the editorial direction of the series. It took
a "bottoming out" of the character before a real change in direction took
place for the character and to show draw attention to this change, DC
decided a new artist was needed.

I stopped buying Superman and Action while Swan was there. I was not
trying to tear a titan from a bygone era down. I simply was not
entertained and left the book (and the artist) for others to enjoy.

By the mid-1980s, superhero art - fair or not - had demanded a lot more
dynamic quality than Swan was giving. Realistic rendering had given way
to a new style. This doesn't mean that he wasn't a good artist - he was!,
it just meant that his style was not needed for certain books and that
those books were the type that dominated the market at the time.
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Todd Hembrough
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 2  

So you think DC and Marvel should publish books
they know the fans won't buy?

----

It is too bad that a word like fan can describe avid comic readers as well as speculators, and people who are chasing the latest fad.

JBs fans, who will follow his work from title to title, are not likely the same folks who buy and 'slab' new comics.  They are also not likely the folks who will pay absurd markups to buy Weds new comics on Thursday, since they are 'collectors items'.

But to be honest, from where I sit, catering to the speculator, aging fan is a large part of what brings the comics industry to the point where it is now, which appears to be a non-sustainable industry, devoid of new, young consumers to take up the slack as the aging readers drift away.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 3  

The comicbook industry has always been about pandering. Remember Marvel's monster books? Remember the Kung Fu titles? A character like "The Disco Dazzler" does not spring fully grown from Stan Lee's head, you know!

Currently, alas, we are deep into a period of pandering worse than any I have ever known, or any I have read or heard about from before my time in the Business. Pandering to the "collectors". Pandering to the aging demographic. Thus ^^***** produces books no 12 year old would ever want to read, and DC churns out rehashes of 20 year old "event" comics. This is the future? Sure, if the future is going to be very, very short.

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Todd Hembrough
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 4  

The fans. You've seen how fast they turn, how someone who is "hot" one year can be stone cold the next -- and there is nothing, it seems, that the fans love more than to see the titans of bygone days torn down.

--

Comics is a lot like Hollywood in this way.  Almost every Hollywood star gets chewed up and spit out when their 15 minutes (or longer) is over.  Movie stars, TV stars, there are so very few who can overcome the need of the public, the press and the producers and studios to continue unveiling the "NEXT BIG THING" or the "NEW IT GIRL". When this happens last months BIG thing or It girl will soon be forgotten.

At least in Hollywood there is a real chance to make substantial money during the (usually) brief period of stardom. 

Tearing down stars is endemic in our society.  US, Star and People seem to exist to feed this hunger, and everyone (or a lot of us) cheers when Tom Cruise implodes, saying we knew all along that he was a bit wacko.

Perhaps it is unconcious jealousy that regular people have, when they see bad things happen to rich and famous people.


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Todd Hembrough
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 5  

The comicbook industry has always been about pandering. Remember Marvel's monster books? Remember the Kung Fu titles? A character like "The Disco Dazzler" does not spring fully grown from Stan Lee's head, you know!

---

Interesting observation.  Pandering in this sense is good (IMO, as we never would have had a KISS comic without it!), since it targets a market that may exist, and allows a company to feed a fad, while it lasts.

If the companies had changed their whole line up, since they thought that Disco was here to stay, or dropped their hero titles in favor monster movies, then, of course that would have been disasterous.

It seems like that is the pandering that is going on now.  Encompassing the whole company, and, in fact, becoming the actual business model going forward.

T

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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 6  

Precisely. Once upon a time there were hundreds of comicbook titles, and only a small part of that number was taken up with superhero comics. Many of those, too, were anthology titles, so that a character like Superman or Batman might front the book, but the rest gave us genre stories, as with DETECTIVE COMICS.

The marketplace -- the fans -- have increasingly turned their backs on other genres, however. And, as many of those fans have become retailers who will not even consider ordering books that are not "hot" or in some other way fitting their narrow perception of what comics should be, the door has swung even more toward the "closed" position. When a paying customer can be told "We don't order So-and-so -- his stuff doesn't sell," you know the industry is in trouble.

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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 7  

JB reminded to me some of the saddest ideas from the '70s. Sigh.

I was thinking to them in these days, while re-reading MARVEL TEAM UP Vol. I... In the 1970s Marvel tried to hook new readers with kung fu heroes (Sons of tiger, Daughters of Dragon, Shang Chi and my loved Iron Fist), horror characters (Dracula, Blade...), disco characters (Dazzler and that Hypno Hustler jerk... My favorite "trash villain"), a guy with a flying skateboard, too (Rocket Racer). But I suppose we have been lucky: there wasn't a sensational fresbee man.

It seemed that everything was considered popular in movies or tv should appear in comics, too. And sometimes the results were really ridicolous, in my opinion!
Dazzler was a good character (and later in UNCANNT X-MEN she had good exploits), but she had rollers and a ball-necklace... Maybe in a disco room she could be cool, but in a superhero comic she seemed so out of her place.
JB, If I recall correctly Dazzler first appeared during the Dark Phoenix saga, so you first drawn her. Did you create her look?*

 

 

 

*The answer could be "Yes, I created that ridicolous look" and this would be one of my worst gaffes ever...!

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 8  

 

Still plenty of the greats alive and kicking somewhere. Just saw Sal Buscema at the convention in NOVA. He strolled in looking like Kirk Douglas in sunglasses, healthy enough to kick the arse of every fanboy in the room. This guy's not doing anything in the industry? Even if he doesn't want to, somebody should be begging.

If the big companies are about pandering, there seems to be a real interest among comics readers in their 30s for comics as they remember them. Why not just hire the aging guys to produce some stand-alone or mini-series type works that don't fall into continuity? Just dig them all out, Colan, Ditko, Buscema, Steranko, Golden, Rogers and hook them up with Thomas, Wolfman, Gerber, Byrne (if he doesn't draw it himself), Stern, even Miller and the inkers like Sinnott and Austin and produce the comics as they understand them to be? How does this not work? Who would have a problem with this? I find it impossible to believe there isn't interest in these creators and their particular style of comics. With all the homage stuff going on around comics and how enthused the online reviewers get when something "reminds" them of when they first started reading comics, I'd think this would not cause the companies to hemmorhage any more money than they already do on useless event crap.

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David Miller
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
It wasn't the fans who illegally withheld Kirby's
original art.

****

Neither did anybody else.


Marvel had no right to the physical artwork.  If they had purchased the physical pages back in the 60's, they would have paid sales tax, something they never did.  Instead, Marvel held onto the pages for two decade of disrepair and theft.  And when Marvel strong-armed Kirby to get him to sign a retroactive work-for-hire agreement, they only offered to return 86 pages out of the more than 10,000 he drew for Marvel in the 60's.  That rounds up to zero percent. 

Marvel was morally, ethically and legally in the wrong.  I wish Kirby would have sued their asses off. 


 QUOTE:
It wasn't the fans who reneged on agreements with
Steve Ditko.

****

Which "agreements" were these?


I can't back this up.  Among the many rumours surrounding Ditko's departure was that Martin Goodman promised Ditko a bigger piece of the Spider-Man revenue.  I thought this was a better example that suggesting that no fans are holding a gun to Mr. Ditko's head forcing him to scrawl out Objectivist screeds instead of new Spider-Man stories.  I wonder, does anyone on this board purchase the comics Ditko is publishing now? 


 QUOTE:
It wasn't fans who stole the idea for Superboy and
fired Siegel and Schuster.

****

The courts declared Superboy a "separate creation".
Siegel and Shuster were not fired.


To quote one Mr. Byrne on aborted storylines: "I generally prefer to avoid discussions of storylines that did not pan out. Too many prying eyes, too few ethics. And too many times seeing my ideas repackaged under another writer's byline." 

If someone pitches an idea which the publisher rejects, and the publisher pursues to same idea with different talent and no credit or payment to the original creator, it is theft. 

There are a number of online sources, including a posting on the DC board by Mark Evanier, which say that Siegel and Shuster were fired in 1946 for pursuing their Superboy lawsuit.  Nothing online should be considered credible, though.  I first read it in The Comics Journal's 1992 obituary of Jerome Schuster, which I will consult when I get home from work, and correct or silently affirm as required.


 QUOTE:
Lay off the fans, and put the blame where it belongs:
DC and Marvel.

****

So you think DC and Marvel should publish books
they know the fans won't buy?


My point was that DC and Marvel should be blamed for casting off the creators.  If DC had kept Curt Swan on Superman, the fans would have kept buying Curt Swan on Superman. 

As to your question: Yes, I do.  And based on the comments on this board, a lot of people here agree with me.  Bill Gaines famously kept his unprofitable science fiction titles aloat for years with the profits from his horror titles, because he was proud of them.  More publishers should follow EC's example. 
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Jon Godson
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 10  

Just dig them all out, Colan, Ditko, Buscema, Steranko, Golden, Rogers
and hook them up with Thomas, Wolfman, Gerber, Byrne (if he doesn't
draw it himself), Stern, even Miller and the inkers like Sinnott and Austin
and produce the comics as they understand them to be? How does this
not work?

*****************

In 1996 some friends and I were at the Chicago Comicon and requested
from the Vertigo editor that Gene Colan could do a Sandman Mystery
Theatre mini or arc. The editor told us that fans wouldn't buy Colan and
that Colan no longer could draw to an acceptable level. This surprised
me because I could not distinguish any of the faces drawn by Guy Davis
from another and would have to struggle to understand who said what.

Colan's Dark Horse work in the late 90s proved them wrong, I think.
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Trevor Colligan
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 11  

I believe the only work he ever did for MARVEL was the Gladiator figure for the Official Handbook to the MU...which is cool but it's really just Superman with a mohawk.



Is this the Curt Swan Superman you are talking about?

I don`t know myself, not being familiar with Curt`s work. Not meaning I don`t know of him, its just that in a line-up of Superman drawn by different artists, i`d have to guess of Swan`s version.


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Trevor Colligan
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Posted: 13 June 2006 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 12  

"This guy's not doing anything in the industry?"

Our pal Sal Buscema is semi retired and only inks Spider-Girl monthly, being a big fan of Mr. Buscema`s I would love to seem do more work. I think he`s done work on every Marvel Character which is quite the resume.
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