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David Brunt
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 1  

I don't think anyone is to blame for the state of comics today bar possibly speculators and those that fed that boom. Certainly I can think of nothing to Blame Moore for. Just because he brought something new to the table, or rather a new way of looking at comics and superheroes. I mean, not to resort to hyperbole, but a man recently burned down a B&B near me. Was that Prometheus fault?
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 2  

Not likely. The Sumerians and Babylonians had fire enough to make bronze when the Greeks were still going through their Cycladic menhir building stage.

But perhaps you can blame oxidation chemistry.

I look forward to hearing more of the Chewbacca defense.



Edited by Emery Calame on 17 June 2006 at 4:49pm
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David Brunt
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 3  

Chewbacca defence? Is that in the F.A.Q.?
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John Mietus
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 4  

Nope. South Park.
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David Brunt
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 5  

Still none the wiser.
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Flavio Sapha
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 6  

I wouldn't blame Moore, I'd blame the editors who embraced the
"deconstruction" of the intelectual property they were in charge of.

It's interesting to note that Swamp Thing seems to have been the sort of
title that stood on its own, only tangentially connected to the DCU.
Moore used that POV to comment on the DCU from the very start, from
the first time the JLA guest-appears to deal with the Floronic Man. This
"commentary" was greatly expanded during the Swamp Thing's trip
through space, was mined by other writers to the point that it became a
"stealth retcon" of the DCU. The editors and writers embraced the Moore
"exegesis" and it became gospel. THIS NEVER SHOULD'VE HAPPENED!

Thus, we still get stuff today like the Rann/Thanagar war, which
"explores" his interpretation of those worlds and even Joe Quesada
sounds off at Newsarama saying that to relaunch Thor or Namor, we'd
have to get a writer to examine the Asgardian or Atlantean society's
"contradictions". Gimme a break!

Vertigo could roughly be called the "House that Alan built" since so much
of its material is riffed from the groundwork Moore did in Swamp Thing. I
was sixteen when DC gathered its "weird" titles under the Vertigo
umbrella and I was reading most of those. I never thought that that kind
of comic was supposed to be mainstream, or that the tone of those
stories was suitable for Superman or the Justice League. But I thought
there was room for all kinds of comics. After all, I'd grown up reading
reprint anthologies in which you'd find Miller's DD side-by-side with
BWS's Conan and Grell's Warlord alongside Atari Force and GL/GA.   But
the Direct Market proved me wrong.

Edited by Flavio Sapha on 17 June 2006 at 5:05pm
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Floyd Kermode
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | 7  

Comes down to the traditional litmus test -- who got Swamp Thing's origin right, Alan Moore, or the guys who created the character?

(And before anyone jumps in to point out that Len approved the changes, let's keep in mind that, with such a volume of work behind him, it's entirely possible Len did not remember the issue of SWAMP THING that Moore's deconstruction contradicted.)

Why is that the traditional litmus test? The implication seems to be that it must be the guys who created the character, but I can't for the life of me see why that should be so. I've got nothing against the first version of Swamp Thing, but knowing that there was a different one didn't affect my enjoyment of the Moore version in the slightest. My personal litmus test is; is it enjoyable to read? Which Moore's Swamp Thing is (for me) in a way few other comics are.
  I really don't think it matters wether Len approved the changes or not (from reading this thread, I gather he did). I mean, I'm sure it matters to him, but to me what matters is wether the story is good or not. This attitude has been previously described as a rip-off of sorts although without any reason given for why that should be the case.

yours, happily reading comics,

Floyd
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John Griggs Jr
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 8  

I look forward to hearing more of the Chewbacca defense.

************

If the wookie scalp don't fit, you must aquit.
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 17 June 2006 at 11:20pm | IP Logged | 9  

David:  The Wookie defense is when you're making an argument about something, and you bring a totally unrelated example in to prove your point.  It's from an episode of South Park where Chef is on trial.

Example from the show:

"Ladies and gentleman of the supposed jury, Chef's attroney would certainly want you to believe that his client wrote "Stinky Britches" ten years ago.  And they make a good case.  Hell, I almost felt pity myself.  But ladies and gentleman of the supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider.  (Shows picture of Chewbacca) Ladies and gentleman, this is Chewbacca.  Chewbacca is a wookie from the planet Kashyyyk.  But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor.  Now think about it.  That does not make sense.

Why would a Wookie, an eight foot tall Wookie, want to live on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks?  That does not make sense!  But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case?  Nothing.  Ladies and Gentleman it has nothing to do with this case.  It does not make sense!  Look at me.  I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talking about Chewbacca!  Does that make sense?  Ladies and Gentleman, I am not making any sense!  None of this makes sense!  And so you have to remember(...) If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!  The defense rests."


Edited by Matt Linton on 17 June 2006 at 11:22pm
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:45am | IP Logged | 10  

To clarify, saying that Allan Moore doesn't deserve any of the blame is absolutely wrong.

Let's look at the B&B argument. The argument I'm hearing here is "blame the guy who lit the fire" or "the fire" itself.  Heck blame the origin of fire! This is offered sarcastically with the implication that blaming Moore is like blaming a prime mover since he is presumed to have no immediate direct intent in the crime.

Now Moore is no Prometheus. He did not invent deconstructionism nor bring it to humanity. So comparing him to Prometheus is specious. I will assume that taking the blame back to a "Prometheus" is intended to suggest that only the straw tha broke the camel's back should really be blamed for the harm to the camel. It is the tiny final bit of total threshold energy that bears the responsibility for consequences of the entire reaction. The catalyst itself and all energy preceding the point of the reaction's initiation is somehow blameless. Blaming anything but that last bit of energy is somehow supposed to seem unreasonable. This is NOT how we determine responsibility. This is also not really a good anaology for what we are discussing. The analogy must be modified to be valid.

If we let the bed and breakfast be equivalent to the current state of super hero comics then we need more actors than one arsonist(the supposed final bit of threashold energy) to extend the metaphor to represent deconstructionist approach as detrimental to super hero comics. We need to look at EVERYTHING that burned some of the b&b.

What we would have is an eyewitness telling the fireman that Moore didn't burn down the bed and breakfast. Oh he burned down two of the shutters on the front window, and the mail box, and a couple of pieces of siding but there was still plenty of the bed and breakfast left when he wandered off. No it was the other people behind him who thought the fire burning a few parts of the bed and breakfast was pretty cool and burned the rest of it bit by bit until only the freestanding garage converted into a laundry room survived.

While you can correctly say that Moore didn't burn the whole thing down himself he certainly contributed to it getting burned down. While he may not have wanted the whole bed and breakfast burned down and did not command the people following him to burn it down he nonethless with his own hands BURNED some of it.

Now we might want to blame fire instead of the particular idiots who wielded it. But then we end up looking at fire itself as being inimical to bed and breakfasts or, if you prefer, "deconstuctivism"  is now preseumed to be inherently destructive to superhero comics. If we accept this then Moore is again guilty for employing the fire to the b&b. He is not responsible for ALL of the burning but for his part he does bear some responsibility. Also when asked, many of the arsonists would admit that watching Moore burning the mailbox and shutters is what led them to burn down the rest of b&b one at a time until all that was left was the laundry room (which now stinks heavily of ash and smoke BTW).

Prometheus may have brought fire to man as Derrida is said to have invented deconstruction however Derrida never wrote comics. Unlike Derrida Moore clearly had a direct hand in deconstructing superhero comics himself. Thus he gets a chunk of the blame rather than some mythical prime mover red herring.

 

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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:50am | IP Logged | 11  

Any potential objection I might have to changing a character's origin is definitely answered by the knowledge that the original writer not only approved of it, but actually oversaw it as editor.
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 12  

I dunno. I don't much care if the creator is outraged so much as if the original intent of the character is greatly modified and how long that character has had to "set" before the modification happens. And the degree of change is a big part of it too. Going from chemically altered scientist wandering the swamps alone and blundering into helping people mostly by fighting monsters to plant lifeform mimicking the long dead scientist to occult plant god created by fate and stretching back in time to the beginning of plant life surrounded by lesser colleagues... that's a pretty big change.

Swamp Thing debuted in 1971(Alex Olson version). The book with Alec Holland came out in 1972. Anatomy Lesson was 1984. The elemental revelation was 1985.

So Swamp Thing had about twleve or thirteen years to "set" as character before getting rewritten as something almost entirely different(beyond a creature with the same look and few of the same background characters)..

I mean I haven't heard Stan Lee out bitching in public about clones, bio-webs, stingers, Gwen Stacy with a little goblin up her that one time that MJ never told Peter about, the unmasking on TV, the wearing a new robo-costume built by a fellow New Avenger, animal totems, and such.

That doesn't make it right for the character or faithful to the original concept. 



Edited by Emery Calame on 18 June 2006 at 1:24am
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