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David Brunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 154
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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There will always be some that cheat systems. That's an unfortunate aspect of human nature. So it would be foolish of me to say that no-one ever deliberatley sets out to cheat the system. But then checks and measures are in place to ensure that the system isn't abused. Call me naive but I don't believe the majority of people on the dole are necesarily on the skive.
Rather than "one of the most destructive inventions of the 20th Century". I truly believe that the Welfare State was, in potential at least, one of the greatest ideas in the history of ideas. Any society that doesn't provide a safety net for the weakest members of it surely doesn;t deserve the right to the label 'society' in the first place.
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Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 2
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Very right.
IMP.
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Paul Lloyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: Wales
Posts: 486
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 3
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Any society that doesn't provide a safety net for the weakest members of it surely doesn;t deserve the right to the label 'society' in the first place.
***
I agree, but does the state have to provide the safety net? Or could an adequate safety net be provided by charities, churches, extended families, etc?
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Ian M. Palmer
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Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 4
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How would you ensure that?
IMP.
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Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 5
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And human nature being what it is, would it be right to put the burden of supporting the needy onto those who want to?
IMP.
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Mig Da Silva
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 900
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 6
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And who gave you the right to put the "burden" on me? And by "burden", i mean theft.
Who the hell is the government to steal money from me, and give it to someone it considers "unfortunate"?
Who decides who's "unfortunate"? The socialist parties on which the "unfortunate" vote on?
And if the government, with a full army, a jail system, and a fully deployed police, is robbing me my money and giving it to whom it has decided it is "unfortunate" - for some reason always the demographic that votes for them - are they really that "unfortunate"?
Or state sponsored? Or blessed with theft? Or rowned in subsidies? Able to pick cash I earned - because, ya see i wasn't playing the socialist game of being a poor "unfortunate" - from my pocket on command backed by a government and an army?
How many thousands get subsidies? How many thousands vote Socialist? How many millions immigrated in? How many millions depend on Socialist pay outs of money that was stolen from me? How many of them vote Socialist?
I get the deal. I get the social contract. I know a Mafia when i see one. This is the real reason why socialist parties brought millions of third world migrants into Europe and pamper slackers daily - They all vote for them. One hand washes the other, and both wash the face.
You think i don't know a scam when i see one? I would never vote socialist, because i don't need any aid, i don't want any aid, and if i need it, I'll work for it, I'll aid myself, I'd be embarassed to be kept by the government like a retard who can't sustain itself, I'd consider myself a sick loser if i wasn't able to.
So, these Socialist governments steal money from financial independent, self-sustaining, hell, decent, honest, hard working people, who might never vote for them because they don't need that pathetic burocratic socialistoid band of useless aparatchiks; the government steals from them and gives it to any loser who will vote for them. And if there aren't enough out there, that's what immigration's for, and third world immigration, preferably. How many millions have come into the UK? And many of them vote labour or liberal dem? More to the point:
Has the democratic system been fixed to vote socialist by the introduction of millions of foreigners who vote socialist in vast majorities?
No wonder Socialists love them so much, and hate us so much they'd have us all fashionably aborted if they could.
Has the system been fixed? Yes it has. Do the socialist govs love to take money from types like me who don't need them or elect them for anything, and love giving it to the types or are chronic dependents and will always need them and vote for them - so they can steal one day even more money from me?
Yes they do. And if i refuse to pay these tyrannical Socialist taxes, I'll be shoved in jail. And if i point out their migrant scam, I'm called a hater, a racist, and I'm shoved in jail too. What democracy? It's theft and Socialists run the game.
After the sponges use all their money to have more kids, how many of them will vote socialist for more subsidies? After i have less money and less kids and much lesser of us will vote against these Mafioso parasites? And once all the migrants from the world have a higher birthrate than anything in Europe, will all their millions and millions vote Socialist?
And if the government rejects more sponges? Will they strike as they do every month in France? And when the immigrants don't get enough payoffs from the socialists and ask for more, will they riot and burn cities? No they won't. We all know they won't. They haven't.
Sorry. I know a scam when i see one. I can't believe center and right wing parties were so stupid as to not stop subsidiary dependence and uncontrolled immigration as a scam to get more votes to the Socialists. The UK is prime example, it's is now COMPLETELY impossible for the Tories to win any election - They already noticed it and had to elect a Tony-Blair-carbon-copy, and start yapping lip service about multiculturalism. They either moved left or died.
You'll say it's not theft. Tell it to someone else. In Sweden the tax rates go as high as 60%, and people complain for the rates they payed under Feudalism? We're now paying more taxes than the Medieval time or under the Romans in income tax alone, let alone gas, consumption tax, house tax, god knows what else. And for what? Hospitals who work so bad I spend the money in private anyway? Schools who've now are inundated with so many Africans the teachers go home to cry themselves to sleep everyday, and are such a anarchic unorganized jungle I'll never put my kids in, yet payed for? The highways I still have to pay any time I cross?
What a joke. What is this money being used for anyway? I never seen an inch of it back. But I see the sponges out there, and the recently arrived migrants in brand new cars speeding by a fellow country man scavenging in the garbage containers. Is he not "unfortunate"? Oh, i forgot. He's not black enough to be "unfortunate" in Socialist Europe. Not unionized enough to be "Unfortunate".
Yes. You guessed it. Probably doesn't vote socialist enough to be "Unfortunate"... His demise.
But Abu Hamza was "Unfortunate" enough. "Unfortunate" enough to live in a 700.000£ house, with a subsidized 10.000£ remodeled kitchen, where a 44 year old wife who never had a job receives full pay from the Labour government.
It's a Mafia. Period. There is no socialism. Only Mafia. Before them so did the Vatican levied tax - For completely "Humane" reasons, of course. Yes, charity only. The needy needed it, you know. The "Unfortunate", you see. Yes. I see.
What a joke.
The Governments have every right to steal money from me. They have an army. But I'll be damned if I'll take the Humanist bullshit as I'm being hand stolen of my money from my pocket.
And after all, what am I? Trash? Not Human enough? A mammal free to be parasited by fleas? Is a leach doing the Humanitarian thing too? No. I'm not, neither my efficient, self-supporting, hard working, companions "Humane" enough. So just have the way with us and steal as much as you can to support your corrupted governments, your bands of burocratic incompetents, and your armies of subsidy-dependent imbeciles who need the likes of you for a living.
Take as much, and as fast as you can, and don't forget to use the cash to put a camera in every street and grab our retina scan to keep us, parasite host cows in line and well milked.
Quick, grab as much and as fast as you can. Fast, because there's no telling when a disaster as such as we waking up might occur. Then some benevolent god have mercy on them, because after being stolen and bamboozled, and submitted for all these years, we sure as hell won't have any.
After all these decades enjoying the fame of being spat with slurs of inhumanity (for refusing to be thieved!) we might as well start enjoying the profit of actually deciding to being so.
Edited by Mig Da Silva on 11 June 2006 at 5:18pm
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David Brunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 154
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'm actually a bit scared of replying to that. I tried cutting and pasting and replying point for point but it was so rambling and circular in it's arguements that it wasn't possible. You don't care what I think, you're not going to listen. Yet for some reason I can't help myself. Stupid me.
Firstly you seem to equate tax with Socialism. For one New Labour has as much in common with true Socialism as I do with Soo the Bear. I've heard of her but never met her and I doubt she even knows I exist. Secondly you seem to infer that only Socialist governments enforce taxation. Well that's patently nonsense. All government taxes it's population. Left, right, center, tax is one of the two inevitabilities of life, right Mr Clemens?
You also say that Socialists want to 'fashionably' abort people like you. I don't know what that means but if you're implying they want you dead well that's nonsense too. If they want to leech you, as you implied, you're needed.
You also say, several times, that Socialists arranged enough voters to win by promising handouts. If that was happening then surely the Right Wing government of pre 97 would of been aware and could have stopped it. And I'm proud that this country still takes refugees. Apart from anything else you could argue we need tham, but that's another arguement. I have an ex who works in immigration and I can tell you that they are rigorous and fair and send back many more people than they let in. And I know many teachers, trained as one myself, and not one cries at night because there are Africans in their class. Where did you get that idea from?
And besides have you really never benefitted from the tax you pay? Never needed medical treatment or the emergency services? Never had a state education? Never had your rubbish carted away to a municipal tip? Never driven on a surfaced road? If you really believe that they, and the other millions of small ways you benefit from taxation should be yours without the need to pay for them somehow...well that's scrounging.
Edited by David Brunt on 11 June 2006 at 9:02pm
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
| Who the hell is the government to steal money from me, and give it to someone it considers "unfortunate"? |
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Is the Goverment stealing from you when it funds schools, law enforcement, trash pick up, building highways, military or countless other things?
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 11 June 2006 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 9
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Portugal must be some sort of Socialist hell hole over run with lazy immigrants amd neo-communist bureuacrats all after Mig's hard earned money. Hopefully they will never find the shoebox.
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Floyd Kermode
Byrne Robotics Member
Worked Really Hard to Get Banned
Joined: 12 June 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 36
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| Posted: 12 June 2006 at 6:48am | IP Logged | 10
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By all means -- if you like Moore's stuff, read it,
enjoy it, recommend it to your friends. But don't pretend it's
something it's not.
Likewise, if you can't stand Moore's work, feel free to tell your friends (and, thanks to the internet, strangers) how much you dislike it, but don't pretend it's something it's not. There is much more to Moore's work than 'everything you've been told is a lie' and deconstruction of super-heroes. I've read Skizz, Killing Joke, From Hell, Tom Strong (books one and two), LOEG, Halo Jones, Promethea and most of Moore's Swamp Thing stories. I found Promethea overblown and pretentious, all else is brilliance. Certainly there's much more there than just 'deconstruction'. Moore brings depth to his stories which makes a lot of other comics look sadly two dimensional.
Rather than rapsodize about Moore for ages, I'll cite one thing that, for me, says a lot about his approach. At the beginning of Killing Joke, Batman is asking the Joker if there's anything he can do to change the eternal battle they're in. It's touching and, far from being 'deconstructionist' intensely realistic; wouldn't you wonder if it was ever going to end, if there was anything you could do to stop it? He treats both characters as real people.
Moore deserves the adulation he gets. He's not perfect - I think of the sickeningly clever and trendy Promethea and shudder here, but he really thinks about his writing in a way few others do.
as for all the political stuff on this thread, I can't be bothered with the 'socialism bad, Ayn Rand good' stuff here. There's enough of that everywhere else. Put me down on the welfare state side thanks.
all the best,
Floyd
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Ron Farrell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 1518
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| Posted: 12 June 2006 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 11
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Excuse, I know it was three or four pages ago, but...
"Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow" gave Superman a happy ending? The Wesinger/Schwartz Superman in particular?
The story killed off Pete Ross, Jimmy Olsen, Lana Lang, and Krypto. Surprised they didn't off Batman and Mon-El to complete his friends list.
He gave up both halfs of his identity. He gives up his powers not because he's not needed anymore, but because he took a life.
One happy element, marrying Lois, does not make for a happy ending.
Bates and Maggin should have been given the final writing assignment, instead of going for the gimmick.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 12 June 2006 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 12
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"Killing Joke"
Such ... brilliance.
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Topic Closed)
