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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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It's all very self-referential in comics now, since (as I understand it), a future Hobgoblin (who looks more like the Green Goblin) is using "retcon bombs" to alter history (with the result of Ben Parker not being dead) in the current Spider-Man books. UGH.
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Brett C. Flechaus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 March 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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Yes, that's the key. The COIE was a great maxi series, but it was the uneven
followup that was the real problem. Additionally, to me the the major revisions
were great reading but caused more ripples than the Crisis itself. JLI, Batman
Year One, Man of Steel and Wonder Woman were all solid mini's or debuts but
were mostly event/overkill. As I finished reading COIE, I expected that some fuzzy backstories were slightly changed but that was all I needed to know. We
really, ( other than a sales event ) did'nt need MOS or Batman year one. Besides
the thrill of seeing JB on a DC flagship book, MOS was kind of tame. I enjoyed
JB's Action & Superman issues so much more than the mini series itself.
The legion should'nt have suffered because the characters were not supposed to even know that they were missing Superboy. They just existed and we should've moved on. Superboy was the reason they were founded, they existed, reality was warped in the Crisis and they survived and continued to exist. How does that
ruin the Legion? It does'nt even say that those stories never happenned. They did but then were wiped out. there's a subtle difference. The pocket universe or
Giffens Valor/Mon-el/Lar Gand?? stuff was'nt really needed. COIE was essentially a magic wand solution. Nuff said.
DC editorial is the real villian here. They backslid at conclusion of Crisis and
did'nt make the revamp totally complete. Then they compounded that problem
by allowing whacked out stuff that did'nt always jibe with the other titles, like
Hawkworld. And then finally, they turned a blind eye as tons of pre crisis stuff
seeped back in later years like Supergirls, Kandor,Batgirl, Krypto, the
Justice Society and on and on and on.
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Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 3
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Necessary, no. But it did introduce to me, hitherto a Marvel zombie, loads of older DC characters whose adventures I then sought out in the original comics. So instead of drawing a line under the multiverse, it brought me into it.
IMP.
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 4
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The idea of Crisis was fun, even if the execution left something to be desired. I would've rather the result had been Earths 1 and 2 getting "smooshed" together into a new Main Earth, with all other parallel Earths left untouched, and with Superman and Wonder Woman rebooted (albeit less radically than they actually were in '86 and '87, so as not to insert big question marks into JSA, JLA, and Legion history).
JB says the answer was to just "Stop doing Earth2 stories." Well, this would've put Roy Thomas out of a job (which is what ended up happening anyway) and besides, some of us like the JSA!
As for Superman being "identified
as somehow being the lynchpin of all the parallel worlds" -- I liked that! It is true, after all, that where DC is concerned, "everything starts with Superman." (Yeah yeah, Dr. Occult...whatever...) I have no problem whatsoever with Superman -- of whatever Earth -- being the most important being in the universe/multiverse/omniverse/hypertime/pick your favorite term.
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 5
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Necessary? No way! Did really the Multiverse create problems to readers? I don't think so, 'cause in the '50s and '60s superheroes were read by children, and if they could understand the Multiverse concept, adults could do it, too (of course I'm not telling that American children are stupid!--9.
The post-Crisis gave us great comics, but we could read them even without that event. I often wonder how could be Superman by JB without the reboot... Surely, a great comic book!
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Mike Bunge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1335
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 6
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"Crisis made the books more like Marvel imo, and that got me interested in DC. But in hindsight, revamping the books could have easily been done without blowing everything up."
It seems to me that this is the essential element in the COIE or no COIE debate. Though I'm sure no one at DC would put it this way, the goal of COIE wasn't really to make the DC Universe less confusing...it was to make it more like the Marvel Universe. Which wasn't a bad business decision, given that Marvel's lead over DC as the top comic publisher in the U.S. had been growing ever since the end of the 1960s.
The problem was unless you blew everything up, DC editors were going to have to spend years having an argument every time a creator wanted to do an Earth-2 story or some such thing. Given how poorly DC was able to enforce the changes of COIE, without it any effort to alter DC storytelling traditions would have likely been an even greater failure.
Mike
Edited by Mike Bunge on 08 June 2006 at 3:15pm
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4184
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 7
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No, it wasn't necessary but, aside from what it did to All-Star Squadron, I can't complain about the story itself or the after effects. Maybe the Legion, but that was so many years later I'd rather blame fans turned pro who just wouldn't let go than Crisis.
(Basically, I figure if I have any issues with the aftermath of Infinite Crisis, it's karmic payback. :-) )
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Troy Nunis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 8
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Nothing in comics is Neccessary -- Was CoIE (or iCrisis for that matter) wise? the best path at the time? well reasoned? well -- problaby not.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 9
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"As for Superman being "identified
as somehow being the lynchpin of all the parallel worlds" -- I liked that! It is true, after all, that where DC is concerned, "everything starts with Superman.""
Sure. But the question is, why? Is he God?
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John Bodin
Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3911
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 10
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Crisis seemed very exciting at the time -- like the ultimate expression of the annual JLA/JSA "Crisis On [fill in the blank]" team-ups. The ramifications and repercussions of Crisis, though, weren't worth it, even at the time.
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Jon Godson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | 11
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"As for Superman being "identified as somehow being the lynchpin of all the
parallel worlds" -- I liked that! It is true, after all, that where DC is
concerned, "everything starts with Superman.""
Sure. But the question is, why? Is he God?
*****************
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Robert Bulkeley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 27
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| Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | 12
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"Sure. But the question is, why? Is he God?"
I think that you may have struck on a future storyline for the Superman titles. Sooner or later some writer will tackle the problem.
Bob
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