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Topic: JB vs. Women (Libel) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Steve Horton
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 1  

"Look at you, you must be almost 30. Have you ever kissed a girl?"


 QUOTE:

Have a lighthearted character's wife raped and murdered. Easy. Way too easy, if you ask me.


EXACTLY!

(Aside: Marvel may have done a lot wrong, but they haven't had civilian supporting cast members (such as Aunt May) raped and murdered. Yet.)
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Christopher Arndt
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 2  

This little dork's study might be more more effective at all if he enlarged the panels so I could see what the heck he's whining about.

Obscura obscura obscura.

And is he using Tigra as an example?  As I recall her losing to her animal side was in-character at the time.   Scarlet Witch giving in to evil urges wasn't brand new either.

"Byrne holds"?  "Byrne Holds (when someone is lifted aloft by the neck)"

"that the time was right for a detailed study."  rather pretentious for a crappy, thin essay by a dude with no name.

CJA
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Christopher Arndt
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 3  


 QUOTE:
she decides to change her name to the Invisible Woman, to reflect how her abuse has helped her grow as a person. Never mind that she's already married, had a child, had a miscarriage… I guess she's not really a woman until she's put through the wringer.


and he mischaracterized the name change.  putz.

CJA
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Jacob P Secrest
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 4  

 John Byrne wrote:
in "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," we have
women being spanked and degraded.

****

Isn't Alice (in Wonderland) raped by Mr. Hyde?

That wasn't Alice (who wasn't even in League if I recall coorecly), it was
[spoilers] The Invisible Man

Edited by Jacob P Secrest on 25 May 2006 at 1:29pm
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José Emilio Amo
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 5  

LOL

The problem is there are a lot of people that think the story is based always in the life of author, if the story is about torture they say: "Oh my god!, that author likes the torture"

This is the first time that I see it about JB but I saw the same with Alan Moore or Frank Miller, They are people who likes put labels in the authors and never seen the work, one day a comic of Sin City falls in his hands and he says: "Frank Miller is sick, and Frank Miller is sick even if he do a story about Mother Teresa"

Is George Lucas sick creating a society at war and characters like Darth Vader or Jabba? NO, he wants to do funny stories, a story has interest when there is a conflict, without conflict there is not story.
When does the story of a clock begin? When the clock is stopped.

The only sick person that needs help is the person that count the nipples or the torture scenes in a comic.


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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | 6  

is this guy related to Jana by any chance... ?
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Ed Aycock
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | 7  

I consider myself a feminist, and I've always loved JB's women.  They are smart, savvy and resourceful.  For god's sake, in his five year run on FF, he made Sue Richards go through an awakening of her own as she discovered her self-esteem and went literally from Girl to Woman.  One of my favorite scenes to illustrate Sue's evolution was when she faced off against Jean Grey in FF 286 and defeated her when everybody else was felled by Jean.  That's the work of a man who doesn't treat women well in his books?

JB's women all have their own personalities and their own minds.   I have always come away from his books thinking JB has tremendous RESPECT for women, and not the other way around.

Edited to add: I always thought the scene of Bethany killing her would-be rapist was a very powerful one.  It's so rare that a woman is ever shown able to face her attacker and it's tricky if she does.  I'll never understand the outcry over Thelma and Louise ... the man slapped Geena Davis around, is about to rape her and people didn't understand why women cheered when he was killed?



Edited by Ed Aycock on 25 May 2006 at 4:52pm
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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 8  

I remember when Hal-obsessed fans would go after Ron Marz for every slight thing. (Even if you disagree with the Hal/Kyle switch, you have to admit some of those vocal types were off the deep end.) They pointed out that Marz's villains always engage in violence against women. Marz dignified this accusation with a response in an interview, giving a reason why his bad guys do this stuff--they're bad guys. The way you show someone is a bad guy is by having him do something bad. What a maroon.

As JB said, just about any writer's work could be twisted to point this way, under the fallacy of every character's behavior reflecting the writer's views. What's next, accusations that Jack Kirby had a thing for fascism?
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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 9  

Besides...

Wasn't he the one that never accepted the pitches to do those stories in Wonder Woman that started like: Wonder Woman is raped (or something like that?)

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Mig Da Silva
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
Why is it that JB does something, or even DOESN'T do something, and he is CRUCIFIED for it, but others can do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and yet not only are they NOT called on it, but, in some instances, they are PRAISED FOR IT...

Double standards, anybody?


In all fairness, not only do other guys do it, and a lot worse, but when they do it, it's cool.

I think in most already done posts, the bias is clearly exposed, if you haven't noticed the bias towards JB in particular, by now, you probably never will. So my post is more geared towards the why:

It seems to me, that the real crux of these persecutions had never anything to do the art, or the artist, much less the professionalism. That's why, for the most part, most are profoundly contrived, forced, and, at times, bordering on farsical.

I was, the other week, skimming through another regular Byrne bashing news thread at Newsarama - the one that announced JB has penciller for the Atom - and i started to notice something interesting in an unealthy portion of the flame-starters. One had a "latino" name (you'll notice i have one to so spare me the PC bs ;-), the other one at a point wrote in Spanish in his post, and there was more of them; and it immeadtely hit me, that none of these people ever even gave a rats ass about John Byrne before, until they either heard the Blonde\Latinas comment, or heard it out of someone that heard about it (more often, the case).

I started going back in my mind, and noticing that all major detractors and flamebait starters on JB across internet messaboards, so called internet "journalism", and even the Amazon.com weirdo that graced the about to be published Masterworks (that wasn't even published at time of comment), all had a thing in common: They were either women, with the mysogenist libel, Black, with the N word libel, or Latino, furiously exposing the Alba "scandal".

Don't missunderstand me. There are most obviously people with credited and well founded criticisms of JB's art. There might even be more than average. But i really couldn't avoid noticing that the ardest criticism, the most wanton nonsensical attacks, clearly came fervently out of people with a totally different bone to pick than art, artistry, or professionalism.

Even the unfornate recent even with a certain Penciller, was started because of ulterior motives, completely removed out of art and professionalism.

Unfortunately this JB phenomen thing has just transformed into internet bandwagon status making it a really easy to jump into. It's not easy to go against the grain, because a soon as the Race card starts being played in for instance, the Jessica Alba comment, every single American-Latino guy seems to jump furiously, and if needed be 24\7 on it, add the ocasional PC guy, plus the other angry "Demographics", and it's a pretty much impossible river current to go against.

The other day, can't even remember why, i tripped over JB's page on a certain free pseudo-'encyclopedia', and there was a guy who had devoted his time at creating an extensive - and amazingly far-fetched - list of John Byrne violation of human rights of said Demographic pie factions. It clearly has the marks of demographic activism, political diatribing, or, in sum: Pretty much close to zero to do with art, pencils, inks, or anything even remotely professional.

This is clearly disturbing, on a country that praises itself of the 1st amendement.

One of the most frustrating facet of these 'criticisms' is how little any of them have to do with technical proficiency, making it even harder to counter-argument.

This scenario being such, i really can't blame the artists who just either don't talk to the internet masses, or just disappear from it, JB's case isn't even the most serious, i believe, and the recent Dan Slott afair, has hallmarks of a right down psycopathic nature of whom and what he had to deal with.

Interestingly enough, a recent comment i saw at the Jerry Siegel thread on Newsarama, pretty much accuratly describes, for me, the current state of affairs:

The internet continues to prove that for the most part it is the play thing of the low and classless.

Indeed it seems to be.
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Dave Farabee
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 11  


 QUOTE:
Oh, and, Dave, I am not accusing Alan Moore of misogynist malice, really. I'm pointing out, though, that the man has written tales wherein women were abused, maimed, spanked, raped, and tortured, and yet some people like "Zan" single out JB to accuse of being a malicious misogynist.

Cool, I just wanted to make sure we weren't actually veering into the realm where the mere depiction and/or discussion of, say, rape, was equated with misogyny. For instance, Moore does delve into the brutal murder of women in FROM HELL, but he actually goes far beyond the usual telling of the tale to define the women as real people. Their fates are, of course, terrible, but it's very clear that Moore's sympathies are with them. 

As counterpoint, I thought the rape and murder of Sue Dibny was abhorrant in IDENTITY CRISIS. It was pure shock value - just something to piss off the menfolk - and Sue's own response to being raped warrants not even a single panel.

JB is right. It's always about context, and I've never thought for a moment that there was any misogyny underlying his work. The guy who brought the Invisible Woman into her own, who created Kitty Pryde, and who wrote the book on smart-and-sexy with She-Hulk? Not a chance.

I do remember noticing many years ago that torture pops up quite a bit in his works, and that surprised me. OMAC, the Master, Lana Lang, Wonder Man, Bethany, Nick Fury, Wonder Woman...plenty of instances, though several of them came from explicitely mature reader titles (OMAC, NEXT MEN), and none of 'em have singled out women in particular. I asked JB about it several years ago, wondering if the recurrance of torture was intended to draw attention to an issue he felt strongly about. Honestly, I've forgotten what his response was.

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Dave Farabee
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 12  


 QUOTE:
I'll bet Moore was sniggering like a 12 year old when he wrote that scene.

LEAGUE is a very blackly humorous work.

Here's what Moore has said specifically about that scene and some of the other, coarser elements of the series:

"I think that when you take the sex scene with Pollyanna that takes place in the second issue, you'll see that there is a lighthearted element to it. The scene where the Egyptians try to rape Mina is nasty but comical though. Rape is serious, the idea of rape is a horrible thing and there's no intention of trivializing it. However, one of the unspoken pillars of Victorian fiction was the notion of the 'fate worse than death.' Human sexuality, screwed up as it is, is a big part of Victorian fiction, as is the racism. When you see the Arabs in the first issue and when you see the Chinese in #3, I'm sure they'll be portrayed in the same way. This is what we wanted. We're not talking about real Arabs, real Chinamen, or even real women.

I suppose people could accuse me of wallowing in these elements under the guise of postmodernism and they'd probably be right. I don't think that you get an unpleasant atmosphere after reading the stories. It's more British attitudes that are being pilloried rather than the targets of those attitudes. What makes it funny is the absurdity of the Victorian vision, this idea of a supremacist Britan that ruled the entire world. It's one of those bits than I'm most enjoying, to explore all those Victorian attitudes."

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