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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133245
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 1
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The fact that the article suggests that you include those scenes specifically as part of some kind of anti-woman mentality is why I find it not at all persuasive, and also why I refrained (and refrain) from listing off scenes that I do remember that fit the definitions offered. No need to add more fuel to the fire.*** Can't really think of any scenes that truly fit the terminology, aside from those I name, so fuel adding would be extremely difficult without practising the same kind of myopia this "Zan" seems to have made a lifestyle. Note his/her choices -- the Big Barda story in ACTION, neglecting to note that Superman receives the same treatment. The abuse of Artemis in Hell, sidestepping the fact that she was there in the first place looking for Harry Matthews. And, please. Jasmine's abortion? Where does that fit? The rest, a parade of female characters being swatted out of the air, or knocked aside by bad guys, match in all details the treatment meted out to the male characters since the genre was invented. It would seem that the agenda here is to single out any act of violence of which a woman is on the receiving end as being distinctly different from the same act of violence perpetrated against a man. The word "sexist" springs to mind. +++ By the way, "Zan" seems to credit you for inventing the image of one character holding up another character by the throat. He/she refers to this action as a Byrne Hold. Is he/she quoting something, or was that attribution created in this article? (I'm pretty sure that there were, y'know, like, other artists who drew such images before you became a professional. Just a hunch.) *** Apparently "Zan" never saw the original STAR WARS.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16497
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 2
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Frank, my mention of Alan Moore above was sarcasm. naturally. That noted, I believe that Mr. Moore has degraded women in his stories more (and in worse ways) than JB could ever be accused of doing. And there are other writers that could be accused of writing such scenes, as well.
Why, then, is JB being singled out, here?
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16497
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 3
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I just wanted to add, if this "Zan" wanted her(?) essay to have any merit, then she(?) should have made the article a study of the way comics in general have treated women, and not centering on JB. Regardless, since comics routinely show men being beat, tortured, killed, maimed, and more, one has to really bend things to make the point that comic books pick more on women.
Oh, and nothing JB has done compare to the malicious treatment of Sue Dibny or (invoking Moore, again) Barbra Gordon.
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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Mexico Posts: 1602
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 4
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JB always gives great powers to female characters and makes them more cooler than the rest of the writers in the business.
The rest is just a desire to see more than what it is.
IMO
Edited by Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño on 25 May 2006 at 10:39am
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Dave Farabee Byrne Robotics Member
Quit Forum
Joined: 01 September 2004 Posts: 985
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 5
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Outside of THE KILLING JOKE, which was ill-conceived but not, I think, conceived with misogynist malice, I can't recall any Alan Moore stories that might be said to have degraded women. Which ones are you talking about, Matt?
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Simon Matthew Park Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 2156
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 6
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Zan needs to get out more. What a total misrepresentation of the stories mentioned. Did he/she/it even read these things? JB's characters (of either gender) are some of the most carefully observed and intelligently written in comics. This twit has gone beyond oversimplification, and into the realm of stupidity. Not to mention outright dishonesty.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133245
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 7
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Why, then, is JB being singled out, here?**** You know the answer to that one, Matt. At some point in the last fifteen years or so, as the marketplace has shrunk and thus come more and more under the control of the basement dwellers who are still mad at me for quitting UNCANNY X-MEN back in 1980, I have become the Great Satan. Dissing me and my work has become the shorthand for being "inside" and "cool" with that unfortunately large contingent of fandom who are not troubled by such niceties as truth or accuracy. As you may recall, from time to time I toss out a "challenge" to anyone who can present a "Bad Byrne" story that is (a) first hand, and (b) true. No one has yet met the challenge, but the stories -- especially in this age of the InterNet -- persist. You can be sure this essay is being quoted in comic shops everywhere as gospel, with any who dare suggest a skewed perspective being shouted down as "Byrne lovers" -- something most fans used to be before ---- er, before ------ Now, what was it exactly that I did, again?
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16497
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 8
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Dave, I seem to recall a rape scene in "Watchmen." And, in "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," we have women being spanked and degraded.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133245
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 9
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Outside of THE KILLING JOKE, which was ill-conceived but not, I think, conceived with misogynist malice, I can't recall any Alan Moore stories that might be said to have degraded women. Which ones are you talking about, Matt? *** Not answering for Matt here, but your question underscores the basic problem with essays like this. One could take the works of Alan Moore, or Stan Lee, Chris Claremont, or Roger Stern, or Frank Miller, or Walt Simonson, or Denny O'Neil, or, frankly, just about any writer of super hero stories you would care to mention, and in them find women being treated in precisely the same way as they are in mine. In fact, in some of the older stories -- Sue Storm, Lois Lane Girl Hostages -- you will find the "abuse" is really the only purpose the female characters have. They exist to be kidnapped by the badguys and rescued by the heroes. Sit down with an ESSENTIAL volume of Stan and Jack's FF and view it thru the distorted lens of this "Zan" and see what you find. (Both the Sub-Mariner and Rama-Tut offer to let the boys live if Sue will marry him -- rape by any definition. Etc, etc.)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133245
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 10
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in "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," we have
women being spanked and degraded.
****
Isn't Alice (in Wonderland) raped by Mr. Hyde?
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16497
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 11
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Oh, and, Dave, I am not accusing Alan Moore of misogynist malice, really. I'm pointing out, though, that the man has written tales wherein women were abused, maimed, spanked, raped, and tortured, and yet some people like "Zan" single out JB to accuse of being a malicious misogynist.
Again... double-standard.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16497
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Posted: 25 May 2006 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 12
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Though I read both volumes, I can't recall if Alice was raped, but the Invisible Man was running around and raping young women.
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