Pedro Bouca: When Peter David did that, you guys crucified him. but Bill Mantlo gets a free pass just because he did it when you guys were 10?

I never crucified him. I, for the most part, enjoyed his Hulk work.  If he'd stopped around issue 400, I would probably have much fonder memories of his time with the character, though. There was a great decline in my interest shortly after the big 400th issue, and it never returned.  In fact, the JB/Ron Garney stuff, and John Romita Jr have been the main reasons I've picked up a Hulk comic in the last 10 years.  I am enjoying the current Planet Hulk stuff, though.

Also, Mantlo doesn't get a free pass from me.  I couldn't stand the Hulk @ The Crossroads issues (other than the U-Foes appearance).

Matt wrote: Poppycock.  Now you're using hyperbole to make a point.  Nothing Mantlo did was ever, EVER, as disparaging, destructive, and mind-bogglingly horrible as what JMS did in ASM and "Sins Past".  Sorry, Pedro, but you're dead wrong on this point.

Sorry, On Sins Past JMS destroyed a former secondary Spider-Man character, the main character got out somewhat untouched (The Other was a much larger character destruction story). On the other hand, Mantlo targeted and destroyed EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of Alpha Flight:

Heather Hudson - suffered the least, but was turned into a female version of Guardian, which made her just a pale shadow of the original istead of the unique character she was. When Mac returned later on, she became a redundant character.

Puck - let's not go into the "Puck was a seven foot tall man with an ancient spirit inside him", shall we? "Sins Past" got nothing on that one!

Talisman - depowered and forgotten. OK, could've been worse.

Shaman - also lost its uniqueness, turning into a male Talisman.

Snowbird - gave birth to a villian and was killed on a "women on refrigerators"-worthy fashion.

Sasquatch - returned on Snowbird's body, thus becoming a woman. That was more stupid than mean, to be fair.

Northstar and Aurora - the whole elf thing.

Box - became a mad cackling villian, died later.

Madison Jeffries - another one who lost his uniqueness, by becoming Box when Bochs was killed.

Marrina - turned on a big monster, killed.

James Hudson - even already dead, he was retconned as a bastard who had links with Weapon X project and Wolverine's adamantium grafting. At least later writers have conveniently "forgotten" that one.

Gary Cody - like Mac, was turned in an Evil Government Bastard.

Of course, Mantlo had to get rid of some members to put some of his unforgettable creations like Purple Girl on the team...

And you must remember that the kind of character destruction Mantlo did WAS NOT run-of-mill at the time like it, sadly, is nowadays. Bad stories were usually stupid, not mean like that one.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Pedro.  I think the Spider-Totem, outing himself to Aunt May, "Sins Past", "The Other", moving into Avengers Tower with his family...pretty much everything JMS has written in ASM has been terrible and, in a couple of cases, extremely destructive to the character, at least in the short term.  We'll have to wait and see what lasting effects Marvel allows his run to have.  To me, what JMS has done to and with Spider-Man far and away exceeds what Mantlo did with ALPHA FLIGHT. 

Listen, I'm not defending Mantlo's run on AF.  What I'm saying is that every single creator has misses.  Some big and some small.  I'll still buy something JMS writes as long as it's not on a mainstream superhero book.  MIDNIGHT NATION was awesome, and RISING STARS would have been if not for the 2+ year delay while he worked out a dispute at Top Cow. For me, I can't and won't allow inferior work like Mantlo's AF interfere with my love of his work on ROM, MICRONAUTS and most of HULK.  That's all.  It's not rose-colored glasses, but work I really enjoy.  Sue me.

I do think Mantlo ruined AF, but then everyone since Byrne has ruined AF. I think MPD was a key Hulk insight (but I like the Holocaust Magneto).

Hit and run? You hit somebody with a car, and then run away? What would it take for some people to behave like people?

IMP.

QUOTE: everyone since Byrne has ruined AF

I thought Hudnall did a decent job.  Too bad his run ended so abruptly. 

The comments on this thread all lead me to my original conclusion - Mantlo wrote more good stuff than bad. Whether we were kids when we first read it is, to me, irrelevant. I think Rom is still a great comic, and Bill Mantlo was always consistant. Everyone has their 'off' periods, and although I agree that he mishandled Alpha Flight, he wasn't the only one.

Victor - I also loved his stuff on Spectacular Spider-Man. Really good stories, and clever use of sub-plots. I recently read Essential Spectacular Vol.1, and it was still as much fun as I remembered it being.

PC:  "Was Micronauts the first comic book to tie in with a toy line?"

Not at all -- three that come to mind are DC's CAPTAIN ACTION, HOT WHEELS and a tryout for the original G.I. JOE (only a loose tie-in, but it WAS licensed from the toy company).  DC also prepared an issue of MATT MASON (Mattel's Man In Space!) that wasn't used, but relettered and run as "Glenn Merritt" in one of their SF books.  And I'm sure there were more.