Gregg, while I think letting adaptations (whatever the medium) overly influence the originals is a little too "tail wagging the dog," most people's exposure to the super popular comics characters comes from other media.  Heck, I'm almost positive (too long ago and I was too young to be sure) my first exposure to Spider-Man (and most of the Marvel Universe, for that matter) was via Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends.  But even beyond TV shows, there's lunch boxes, toys, etc. 

Mike Bunge- Re: Hulk

The whole point is that it was a very successful version of the charachter, regardless of the reason. It just worked. By saying that it was the writer not the story you could then argue that if Lee and Ditko did Martian Manhunter in the same style that they used on Spider-Man then that would have had the same success. Now I am not saying that this is NOT so, just that it is too big an "if" to look at. For the sake of arguement let's say that the smart Hulk was as successful as any other version. Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. But let's suppose. Why would the dumb Hulk be "better" to go back to than the Smart Hulk? Just based on the fact of what came first? Does that not seem to be quite limiting?

Re: Teenage appeal

It could be strongly argued that Hulk was particularly well targeted at teenagers. He was the "outlet" for all that pent up emotion and rage rebelling against the authority that just wouldn't leave him be. Nothing says "teenager" more then that to me. Similarly, Daredevil, the kid who was bullied because he was week and different grows up to get revenge.

So with my two examples and the ones you give, you have better then half of the classic Marvel stable targeting teens.

Re: potential readers

You can not use the specifics of a movie or cartoon to base continued charachter developement on. It is a losing proposition. Just because a kid sees a Hulk cartoon means that if he has the potential interest in comics, he will become interested in Hulk comics more readily than Dr Strange, in all likelyhood. If the kid is like the VAST majority of people who can recognize the hulk, then he has the potential to do nothing more significant than buying the apropriately accessorized Happy Meal. When the Spider-Man movie came out, did 100,000 people go out and buy a Spider-Man comic book and say "hey, this isn't right. he's married. I just don't get it." and then decide to never try another comic book again? Did 10,000? I doubt it. I think Hulk or Daredevil would be better ones to judge the actual effect of the movies on the comic circulation, since they each only have one book. During the first three months of those movies come out, was there any appreciable spike in the sales of the books?

I agree with your logic Greg. Just because kids liked the Spidey movie dosen't mean their going to buy the comic.

 I disagree with using the Hulk & Daredevil movies as a test. Those are 2 bad movies in my opinion. it's a shame because they had alot of potential to be as good as X-Men or Spidey.

I may be the only one out there that didn't hate either of them. Maybe the Fantastic Four numbers would be more telling?

"The whole point is that it was a very successful version of the charachter, regardless of the reason. It just worked.

SNIP

Why would the dumb Hulk be "better" to go back to than the Smart Hulk?"

You'd better understand why something is successful if you want the success to continue.  Were the Star Wars prequels commercially successful because they were good films or because they were "Star Wars" films?  Would Voyager have lasted 7 years or Enterprise more than 1 if they hadn't been Star Trek shows?  For the better part of 30 years, Iron Man sold much, much better than Green Lantern.  Yet now, Green Lantern is selling much better than Iron Man.  Why?

If you don't understand why things are successful, the chances of continuing or replicating that success are miniscule.

As far as Smart Hulk vs. Dumb Hulk -

1.  Millions and millions and millions more people are familiar with Dumb Hulk than Smart Hulk.

2.  I can explain who Dumb Hulk is, what distinguishes him from other characters and what it is about Dumb Hulk that is supposed to appeal to readers.  Can you fully answer those questions about Smart Hulk or is he (to paraphrase someone else) "Look!  It's the Savage Dragon with no fin on his head!"

Mike

"When the Spider-Man movie came out, did 100,000 people go out and buy a Spider-Man comic book and say "hey, this isn't right. he's married. I just don't get it." and then decide to never try another comic book again? Did 10,000? I doubt it. I think Hulk or Daredevil would be better ones to judge the actual effect of the movies on the comic circulation, since they each only have one book. During the first three months of those movies come out, was there any appreciable spike in the sales of the books?"

It's silly to talk about that happening in the present day, because of the distribution problems that limit the access most people have to comics.  Thanks to The Standard Catalog of Comic Books, however, both BATMAN and THE INCREDIBLE HULK experienced significant sales increases when their respective TV shows were on the air.  Those sales increases basically disappeared when the TV shows did.

Furthermore, one of the most successful comics of the 1980s was G.I. JOE.  How was a toy tie-in able to sell so well?  Beyond being a good book, there were certain rules in the 1980s limiting commercials that sold toys to kids.  The makers of G.I. Joe toys got around that by making a national commerical that sold the comic book!

Mike

Greg-

As far back as Stan and Jack, the comics weren't targeted toward the under 10 crowd. They were targeted at teenagers. They were written in a way that a younger kid could enjoy them, but they were not targeted at them. When talking about "kids" in terms of this discussion, I think about the 12-17 year olds that were the meat and potatoes of the industry back in the 80s.

Since the consumer base for comics has grown older, I think that it would be increasingly hard for them to maintain the 40 and 50 year old readers if they (for the first time in 30 or so years) actually started targeting the mainstream books toward 8 year olds.

++++++++++++

Well, the long-term fans have kept the industry afloat, so it's only fair that comics be written with them and only them in mind, right?

Mike Bunge wrote: Thanks to The Standard Catalog of Comic Books, however, both BATMAN and THE INCREDIBLE HULK experienced significant sales increases when their respective TV shows were on the air.  Those sales increases basically disappeared when the TV shows did.

Too true.  Films, television, merchandising all draw potential consumers to the comic books.  Did SPIDER-MAN do that for ASM?  Of course not. Neither did X-MEN, Ang Lee's HULK, FANTASTIC FOUR, or BATMAN BEGINS.  Both Marvel and DC have shown a history of not taking advantage of their recent films to drive consumers to their product.  Also, where the product is sold is a huge problem.  It's a markedly different world now in comic book publishing than it was in the 60s and the 70s. Where a potential consumer would see comics when they pumped gas, got a Slurpee, bought groceries, now they have to seek out specific specialty stores and, as has been reported here, many cities and towns are lucky to have one in their area.  To call into question the affect of films, television and merchandising on comic books because hundreds of thousands aren't storming the stores after, say, a hit movie is missing the mark.  Again, it's Marvel and DC not taking advantage of the massive exposure to direct consumers to their product, and of the DSM who has a stranglehold on distribution.

To Mike Bunge-

I don't think that it matters one little bit how many millions of people are familiar with the Dumb Hulk. Why? Because millions of people aren't buying the Hulk, Dumb, Smart, or Mean. Just because probably one out of three people you meet out on the street could tell you "That's the Hulk" if you showed them a picture doesn't mean that they have any interest whatsoever in the charachter, never mind actually reading the comic book. I maintain that if you took an apropriate "jumping on" issue of the Hulk from the Smart Hulk days, and an equally apropriate "jumping on" point from the Dumb Hulk days and sat in a mall (or some other busy place) and asked people if they were interested in reading both issues and giving their opinion, you would get plenty of people that liked both.  I admit my bias when I actually think the people that read them would prefer the Smart Hulk by about 4-1, but that is just my opinion showing. This would give you a reading on people interested (in at least some small way) in trying it out. You might only get 1 out of 20 people that you asked to read the books, but who really cares what the other 19 people think about the comic books? They are not interested in them. In order to target a book to gain new readers, you need to target the potential consumer base, NOT the entire population. That is why you see more beer and razerblade commercials during a football game than you do on a soap opera. It doesn't matter what the population at large views, what matters is what people that are interested in comic books views.