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Ron Sluyter Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 07 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1867
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Posted: 13 May 2006 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | 1
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I side with those who like to see some development in characters and not a simple rehashing of old plots and story lines. I think it can be done without killing off major supporting characters or life changing events such as marriage. An example of this to me was Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing. One thing to keep in mind is when those of us 30+ years old started reading comics there was not a proliferation of readily available trade and essential volumes to read the classic stories of our favorite characters. In the case of Spiderman there was Amazing SPiderman and Peter Parker The Spectacular Spiderman which were the same character. Now there are several versions of Spiderman one can read on a monthly basis, with Spiderman in the Marvel Universe Proper having 40 years of continuity, the Ultimate Spiderman where he is still in high school, and a line of comics geared to even younger readers in the Marvel Adventure line.
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Darren De Vouge Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 December 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 3586
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Posted: 13 May 2006 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | 2
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Stephen Robinson wrote:
Another problem with aging in comics: Flash as bully makes sense for a high school student. As an adult, he's a complete jerk.
***************
Couldn't have said it any better, Stephen.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17742
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 5:30am | IP Logged | 3
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I have yet to hear one really good argument for aging Spider-Man from anyone.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134737
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 5:53am | IP Logged | 4
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I side with those who like to see some development in characters and not a simple rehashing of old plots and story lines.**** Why does one preclude the other? Stan Lee and Jack Kirby did more than 100 issues of FANTASTIC FOUR without "rehashing old plots" -- unless you extend your definition of "rehash" to include the newest threat from Doctor Doom or Galactus. Yet, in all those 100 issues, what "development" really occured? Reed and Sue got married -- but they were engaged when introduced, so no substantive change there. The Thing got a girlfriend -- but in the ninth issue, before Lee and Kirby slammed on the brakes and the characters stopped moving thru "real time". Much the same can be said of all the Marvel books when Stan was in charge. The illusion of change was ever present, but real change was rare. Even when Peter Parker moved from High School to College it had little impact on the adventures of Spider-Man -- which, after all, was what the book was about.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134737
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 5:56am | IP Logged | 5
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Another problem with aging in comics: Flash as bully makes sense for a high school student. As an adult, he's a complete jerk.*** Think of Biff in "Back to the Future". He is cast in the same mold as Flash Thompson, and is, indeed, a jerk as an adult. The problem with Flash was less that the character aged (except in the sense that that is an overall problem), but that various writers tried to turn him into a nice guy. Even his looks changed. The Flash Thompson we've seen since College bears little resemblance to the guy Ditko used to draw.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134737
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 6
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I have yet to hear one really good argument for aging Spider-Man from anyone. *** There isn't one -- and this fact is underscored by the unspoken subtext to be found in the statements of virtually everyone who thinks "realistic" aging of characters is a good thing. In the vast majority of cases, the phrase "since I started reading" is folded into the demand. I started reading with AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1, in 1963, and Peter Parker was about three years older than me. Hands up everyone who'd like to read the adventures of a 59 year old Spider-Man! How about a 92 year old Batman? And lest anyone feel the urge to suggest the aging originals could be replaced by "legacy" character, lets consider the squawking when that happens! And, indeed, how many times it would happen! What Roman numeral would Batman be up to, at this point?
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Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 7
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ahhh ... nevermind
Edited by Trevor Giberson on 14 May 2006 at 10:20am
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Mike Bunge Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1335
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 8
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"To paraphrase, someone asked if he Morrison and others are such writing geniuses why don't they do any work outside of comic books? Well, why isn't George Lucas doing broadway plays, or television shows? That isn't what he does. He does movies. Ellis does comic books. It is that simple."
Not to beat up on Ellis because the guy probably does love comic books, but the reason George Lucas doesn't do Broadway plays or television shows is that he's sitting on a pile of money roughly the size of Pike's Peak. Ellis is not and given the far greater amounts of money to be made in TV and movies and Ellis' frequently expressed frustration with the comic industry, it's fair to ask "What is he still doing here if he dislikes it so much?"
Mike
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 9
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I'm sure I'm repeating myself, but:
Ellis likes the comic book format for telling stories. He likes the fact that, for the most part, there's far less interference than in TV or movies, where the end result is often quite different than what the writer put on the page. He doesn't like that 90% of the comics on the shelf are superhero books, and that a large percentage of those aren't very good.
Given how often some writers are slammed for wanting to also do TV and movies, it's odd that Ellis is getting slammed for actually wanting to do comics.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36365
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 10
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But I don't get the vibe that he wants to do the kinds of books that he's writing. In other words, I've never really gotten the impression that he likes writing mainstream, company owned superheroes but he does it because he makes more money than his independent work. I think that's the disconnect with a lot of people, like myself, who wonder why he either doesn't a) put his money where his mouth is and only write what he enjoys writing, or b) take the big paying gigs without biting the hand that feeds him.
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 11
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I can see your point, but I just chalk it up to a personality flaw (like many of us have). I think in an ideal world Ellis would be perfectly happy never writing a superhero comic again. But it's easy to say "put his money where his mouth is" when talking about someone else. The fact is that most people can't make a living writing non-superhero comics (or superhero comics, for that matter). So he does his stints subsidizing the work he wants to do by doing work that pays better. Many in Hollywood do the same thing, doing a big studio film to pay for the three or four independent films they'd rather be doing.
I agree it's probably a bit unprofessional to bite the hand that feeds him, but as long as he approaches the work in as professional manner as possible (writing as best he can, which I think he does) I don't really have a problem with it. Again, in an ideal world every Marvel and DC comic would be written by someone who truly loves superheroes and wants nothing more than to be writing them. But this isn't an ideal world.
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Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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Posted: 14 May 2006 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 12
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Warren Ellis IS doing the books he wants, but they are for Avatar, etc. The super-hero stuff just pays the bills. He's quite the prolific guy.
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