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Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 7:08am | IP Logged | 1
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Eric Larsen once wrote a letter to Wizard about why writers shouldn't kill characters they didn't create. Larsen is a bit of an ass at times, but he was dead on. Unfortunatley I have not been able to find it again. Even though iI know it was on Wizard's webpage years back. If anyone has it, could they post it?
Edited by Victor .R. Rodgers on 02 May 2006 at 7:09am
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Richard Stevens Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1994
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 8:21am | IP Logged | 2
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JB said: "Thirty years ago, maybe. Back then, the anal retentives were not
running the show..."
(slightly off-topic)
JB, This is why I think you should spend some of your time producing a
free web strip or serialized story. There'd be no asshole shop owners
denying people your books, no one going into stores to "steal" them, no
Quesadas canceling a series before you're done, no direct market death
spiral. Speculators do not exist.
The most popular strips on the web get about 100,000 warm bodies
passing through on a daily basis. Simple gag stuff with computer
art like I do gets about 1/3 that. The audience of your heydey may have
grown up, but that only means that most of them are in offices or own
computers at home.
You could easily be entertaining hundreds of thousands of people who
are not anal. I'd say that within a year, you could easily have as many
daily readers as the average monthly Marvel or DC book today. Web strips
run by word of mouth and stand or fall by entertaining an audience,
not pandering to collectors.
You'd be a shoe-in.
(edited to fix ugly line breaks)
Edited by Richard Stevens on 02 May 2006 at 8:22am
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Richard Stevens Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1994
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 3
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OK, so maybe the line breaks are made of Adamantium. I hope my points
still make sense.
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Mike Bunge Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1335
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 4
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"Or to put it another way, Spidey was known for his memorable villains and great supporting cast. Maybe Joe should ask himself, which the marriage doesn't affect, why has not a single memorable Spider-man villain been created since Venom (or arguably Carnage)?
Why besides MJ and Aunt May (and recently some New Avengers) does Spider-man have no supporting cast? They moan about that in Wizard. JMS of all people!!!!! Oh, he had such a good supporting cast and now they are all gone."
The lack of villians has to do, I suspect, with creators consciously or subconsciously "holding back" their best work out of fear that they'd create a big money-making character under work-for-hire rules.
The lack of supporting cast I would actually attribute some to the marriage. A Spider-Man comic isn't about Peter Parker anymore. It's about Peter and MJ. I believe that causes creators to focus too much on the marriage as the chief subplot or secondary story in the comics (when they bother to have subplots). I also think the shift from serialized storytelling to story-arcs and emphasizing trade sales leads to less use of the supporting cast. When each issue of Spider-Man is meant to stand on it's own as part of his continuing adventures, I think it's easier to find places in the story to have Peter interact with his supporting cast. But a story-arc is 4 or 6 or more issues about one single story, a story which may not have any place for a visit to the Daily Bugle to chat with the gang. Have just two or three story-arcs like that and it's been a year (real time) since you've shown the supporting characters.
I also wonder if some creators just don't think in serialized terms anymore. I remember a JMS issue of AMAZING (before I bailed on it) where the story was about this annoying secretary/administrator that Peter had to deal with at school and the issue revolved around him having to save her as Spider-Man. The problem was that we had never before seen or heard anything about this character who was supposed to be such a thorn in Peter's side as a substitute teacher, even though it had been months and months since JMS introduced that circumstance. Instead of creating a recurring annoyance for Peter that could amuse us issue after issue, JMS just told us that the character was a recurring annoyance because he needed a character like that for the immediate story.
Of course, that gets us into how JMS gives Peter this new job and then mostly ignores it because it doesn't fit into the stories he's telling.
Mike
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134709
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 5
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I can't figure out how to make money off a web-strip.
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Lance Hill Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 April 2005 Posts: 991
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 6
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Maybe through some unintrusive ads on the pages? Though I'm not sure how much money such things bring in.
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Richard Stevens Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1994
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 7
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"I can't figure out how to make money off a web-strip."
I wish all the other pros and companies were that honest.
Webcomics are like TV. You give them away for free and sell merchandise to
a couple percent of sales. A JB comic with an attached trade paperback
store would almost certainly be profitable. (you'd just need to find someone
to ship the books, but even a friendly comic-shop owner would be plenty)
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Jim Bracjey Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 27 August 2005 Posts: 224
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 8
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The more I read defenses of the marriage, the more I'm convinced it maybe a good thing to drive those "2/3" of the readers out of Spider-Man. May hurt for awhile, but it'll help in the long run. Spider-Man isn't a novel.
Edited by Jim Bracjey on 02 May 2006 at 11:09am
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4188
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
The lack of villians has to do, I suspect, with creators consciously or subconsciously "holding back" their best work out of fear that they'd create a big money-making character under work-for-hire rules. |
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I'd partially go with that. At the same time, I think there's also "fan resitance" to new villains. They want to see their favorites, just as a lot of fans turned pro want to write their favorites. Plus I think most writers try too hard to create the next Dr. Doom instead of the next, I dunno, Electro (i.e., someone who will put up a decent fight but not "strike at the very heart of the character").
QUOTE:
The lack of supporting cast I would actually attribute some to the marriage. A Spider-Man comic isn't about Peter Parker anymore. It's about Peter and MJ. I believe that causes creators to focus too much on the marriage as the chief subplot or secondary story in the comics (when they bother to have subplots). |
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When done right, the married days weren't really that much different than the single days as far as this was concerned. Back then, other supporting characters got some play to varying levels, but the primary focus tended to be Peter and the Current Love Interest (+ Aunt May). For example, I think the most use Robbie got was during the married days (the Tombstone stuff in the Conway run).
QUOTE:
I also think the shift from serialized storytelling to story-arcs and emphasizing trade sales leads to less use of the supporting cast. When each issue of Spider-Man is meant to stand on it's own as part of his continuing adventures, I think it's easier to find places in the story to have Peter interact with his supporting cast.
(snip)
I also wonder if some creators just don't think in serialized terms anymore. |
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These play a huge role, IMO. Not just because of what you mentioned, but also because it tends to leave little room for subplots, which tended to be the biggest way to develop the supporting cast. (You let them do their thing for a few months as a subplot, and then when it's time you put them back with Spider-Man for a lead plot.)
QUOTE:
Of course, that gets us into how JMS gives Peter this new job and then mostly ignores it because it doesn't fit into the stories he's telling. |
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Yeah, that bugged me. I was open to the teaching thing, but I was hoping we'd get a whole world of new supporting cast members that Peter could tick off by constantly ditching, later turn out to be mystery villains or long lost relatives of same, etc. (I was thrilled when they introduced the annoying secretary. Then they never used her again. (sigh) ) What we got was a huge disappointment.
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Jason Fulton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3938
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 10
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Some sort of Penny Arcade / What The?!? strip by JB would be awesome. And if DU / Next Men slips in every once in a while...
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9697
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 11
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John Byrne wrote:
I can't figure out how to make money off a web-strip. |
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Well, I know that Phil and Kaja Foglio do their web strips in black-and-white
and then publish collected volumes in full color when they have enough to
warrant a collection. John Kovalic has expressed an interest in a similar
strategy.
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Jason Fulton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3938
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Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 12
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That, along with ad revenue, is also the Penny Arcade / PVP model.
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