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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 1
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It's kind of funny that this Ellis sentence, that seemed more of a
provocation than anything, is now extended to everybody working at
Marvel.
Maybe Garth Ennis could have said so too. But not Millar, Bendis,
Brubaker, Slott, Kirkman, Vaughan, even not JMS or Joss Wheedon.... so...
we're better stop this non sense at one point of 'those guys hate super
heroes".
Oh, if I have to do the list of 'iconic' artists that dont give a shit about
super hero, well... let's just start with John Buscema you know. Or Gil
Kane, or Steranko, or Toth. I don't say that they hated super heroes, but
all of them would have been much happier working on anything else
(Buscema alway said that he preffered to draw Conan than anything else
at MArvel, ditto for Gil Kane on anything else than super hero (Savage,
Blackmark...).
So that's not even a really good point. I don't care if Buscema was happy
doing Avengers, I just know that his Avengers are great. Dito for Ellis
work - even if his work is certainly not as brillant as Buscema, but that's
another problem.
One last thing on Ellis, I never read his Wildstorm stuff or Vertigo's, and
knew the guy much more by reputation. So when I read his Ultimate FF
run, I was really surprised. I can spot a dozen problems here, but
certainly NOT a lack of respect for the Fantastic Four. Really not - or you
didn't read them.
EDIT TO ADD : I do remember, that said, some early Ellis stuff that were
totally off the point (it was THor, and Excalibur - horrible books), so
maybe he just went on to start loving super heroes later on. Maybe he
was tired of Vertigo :)
Edited by David Blot on 30 April 2006 at 1:32pm
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Matt Linton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 December 2005
Posts: 2022
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 2
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Okay, saying Ellis hates superheroes is like saying Byrne hates Marvel or all Bendis comics are people sitting around talking for 16 pages. It's a vast oversimplification of something and flat out not true. Ellis has stated more than once that he hates that superheroes dominate the market, and that he feels they're often done badly (though without singeling out any specific creators or characters).
That said, this has moved pretty far away from the Spider-Man and MJ marriage, and I'm spending far more time defending Marvel or Bendis or whatever (when I can spend probably the same amount of time criticizing them) so I'll respectfully withdraw from this particular thread.
To sum up my position for posteriety: I feel that Peter and MJ should not be married and that the only way to get rid of the marriage is some sort of reboot or clones.
End (my portion) of thread derail.
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Jim Bracjey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2005
Posts: 224
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | 3
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Mig
All your talk about how Bendis hates superheroes, but cashes checks and how he claims everything before him is trash....isn't that the kind of stuff we all hate when it is said about Mr. Byrne?
Say you dislike the guy's writing, that is your right. There is plenty there to criticize. But making up these "Bad Bendis" stories is too much.
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Jim Bracjey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2005
Posts: 224
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 4
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And what was bad about that Mack quote? He said he liked Perez's design....how is that in any way insinuating that Perez doesn't know anything about design?
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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 5
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Matt L wrote : Ellis has stated more than once that he hates that superheroes
dominate the market, and that he feels they're often done badly
---
Well, if he didnt even said that he hated super hero (and thanks for
correcting us here), that's even more of a bullshit legend that some people
like to spread about. You know like, 'John Byrne doesn't do backgrounds".
Same thing. Not the same people though.....
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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"my idea won't work"
***
Which one? I do not even have one. My point has been that there are so many ways to deal with all of this, it really is a non-issue. If the EIC of Marvel comics thinks that Spider-Man should not be married, then he shouldn't be married, unless either his boss disagrees or most of his readers disagree. If they agree, then you fix it. Period. Otherwise, stop crying.
BTW, I am a Hal Jordan fan. I am glad he is back. I like what Geoff Johns did with "Rebirth," but I would have been just as happy without an explanation. DC could have just started publishing Green Lantern with a new #1 and I would have bought it.
The only idea that is "mine" is not even mine originally. I say forget the universal law of continuity, that is, simply forget the past when necessary. Do you think the "real" universe carries all that bagage with it as it races towards entropy? Actually, I do not know, but why should we expect our comics books to?
Remember, Julie introduced a new Flash, GL, Atom, Hawkman,and JLA with no problems. The multiverse was a ret-con invented to explain what happened to the old heroes so new team-up stories could be written, but it wasn't necessary. If it was, you would have heard about it first.
So you do the same. You MAN OF STEEL an older comic/concept when the barnacles need to be cleared off, or you DOOM PATROL it when you want to re-introduce classic concepts that have been out of print. Who cares what happened in the old series. It was cancelled! This is what Julie did with the SILVER-AGE; he DOOM PATROLled it.
JQ should MAN OF STEEL Spider-Man and loose the wedding if he wants to, or if he feels his fans want him to. Why does it have to be explained? Why do the readers who want to see it happen need an explanation? It's only a comic book for Christ's sake!
The rest of my ideas are only a few of the many options available to those who work with make believe. I say let the market decide.
BTW, that also means if enough people hate the new Doom Patrol, you cancel it and bring back the original (like they did with GL). This is why I dropped Firestorm. It wasn't my Firestorm. It is also why I did not stick around for Blue Beetle #2. I liked it, but not enough to buy it without Ted Kord.
If you cast your dollar votes according to the way you feel about the product, the market should adjust. If you continue to buy what you do not like because you are a collector, why should anything change? They get your money anyway. You really have to put your money where your mouth is and hope for the best.
Isn't that the American way?
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14911
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 7
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I would not use Nextwave as a defense against the notion that Ellis hates
superheroes. A lot of the /positive/ reviews I read are something along the
lines of, "Oh my god! This is so great! Ellis does a wonderful pisstake on
superheroes! His disdain for the characters really shows."
These are the positive reviews...
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David Blot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 858
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| Posted: 30 April 2006 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | 8
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But... did you read it Michael ?
Don't confuse the people who talk about 'it' with 'it'.
Nextwave is good mainly for Immonen art, that said, yes it's a big joke about
super hero, but, which super hero exactly ? Absolutely Z ones.. Like Captain
Marvel - I mean Monica Rambo (beau ?)
Was not also Howard the Duck a big finger to the super hero genre ?
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14911
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| Posted: 01 May 2006 at 2:01am | IP Logged | 9
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But... did you read it Michael ?
Don't confuse the people who talk about 'it' with 'it'.
Nextwave is good mainly for Immonen art, that said, yes it's a big joke
about
super hero, but, which super hero exactly ? Absolutely Z ones.. Like
Captain
Marvel - I mean Monica Rambo (beau ?)
Was not also Howard the Duck a big finger to the super hero genre ?
---
Yes, I did. I tried it out because I like the Elsa Bloodstone character. Too
bad she didn't end up being in it.
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Robert Last
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 February 2006
Posts: 615
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| Posted: 01 May 2006 at 2:03am | IP Logged | 10
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Of the changes that have happened to Spider-Man, I'd have to say I'm actually happy with the way Aunt May finding out was done. Good story, and the tension is still there, just instead of Peter being worried about his Aunt finding out he's Spider-Man, he now has to worry that she can't cope with it (same for her) so there's no loss of tension there. I don't mind that change staying.
I also don't mind Spider-Man having slightly augmented powers, as Stan Lee kinda said this would happen from the beginnning (what with Peter only being a teenager) but the stingers are simply a step too far. Easy to lose them though. Also, generally I prefer organic web-shooters. Even as a little kid, the idea that Peter could come up with web-shooters and NOT make the formula permanent always seemed "off" to me. Having said that, I don't mind either way. I'll cope :)
Spider-Totem. Again, another good idea taken too far, but easily fixed. Yes, there is this line of totemic heroes throughout history, and maybe Peter was destined to be one of them, but the radiation got in the way. Usual Parker luck. So he's seperate from all that, but it allows it to remain in the back story if needed, without impacting Peter or Spider-Man too often.
Avenger/staying at Stark tower. Temporary. VERY easy to change.
The marriage. It's difficult to just get rid of it. The idea that they just drift apart because they married too young is probably the most practical. I've seen it happen to some friends in real life who got married in their teens, and were divorced before twenty. Having said that, I think Peter and MJ being a young married couple isn't too "aging" of the character for readers to identify with. Again, you can't have Peter be too much of a loser, or else you lose people's willingness to identify.
Age. He certainly isn't a teenager anymore, but I doubt he's more than 23 or 24 tops. As far as I can tell, he actually stopped aging about 20 years ago, and on re-reading my old Ross Andru period issues earlier, I'd say he was younger now then in the 1970's! (Andru did tend to draw him around 25-30) You just need a writer and artist who can realistically do a guy in his early twenties.
Sins Past. Easy. Norman's a villian. Hates Peter/Spider-Man. Does bad things like lie, make stuff up, plant believable evidence. The guy is, after all, Spider-Man's biggest enemy. He's a total bastard in fact. I'm sure he'd go to ANY lengths to mess with Peter's head. He just needs access to Peter's DNA, Gwen's DNA, and a healthy dose of comic book science. Bingo. This wouldn't even be the worst thing a villian has ever done to a hero. See Bill Willingham's Elementals for a really creepy example (thanks for that one Mr Willingham, that freaked me out for years. You know what I'm talking about!)
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9697
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| Posted: 01 May 2006 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 11
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Warren Ellis has repeatedly said he dislikes the superhero genre and the only
reason he writes them is because that's the only thing that sells in the Direct
Sales Market.
And, apparently, he can't get a job writing anything else.
So it seems to me that ignoring the man's own words and pointing to works
of his that you enjoy to "prove" that he doesn't hate superheroes is a bit
disingenuous -- or at the very least, self-deluded.
Edited by John Mietus on 01 May 2006 at 5:06am
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Jason Fulton
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 01 May 2006 at 5:01am | IP Logged | 12
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so...we're better stop this non sense at one point of 'those guys hate super
heroes".
We can't really know their stance on super heroes, since the characters they write rarely do anything heroic, much less super heroic. Go ahead and keep on keeping on, though.
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Topic Closed)
