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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 1  

I have next to no knowledge on the subject but I do like a good discussion. I have a couple of questions please excuse my spelling..

Did De Vere have any works atributed to him that are in the style of Shakespeare?

Was being a writer/playwrite so below a noble status that being the greatest was to be hidden and would a common man hide it too?

Were these works the blockbusters of their day or were they just another stage performance?

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 2  

Did De Vere have any works atributed to him that are in the style of Shakespeare?

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Yes. When Thomas Looney set out in search of a candidate, one of his prerequisites was that there be work published under the author's own name.

This was how he found de Vere. (In 1622 Henry Peacham published a list of poets who made Elizabeth's a "Golden Age". He placed de Vere at the top of the list, but did not include Shakespeare at all!)

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Was being a writer/playwrite so below a noble status that being the greatest was to be hidden and would a common man hide it too?

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Yup. Mentioned upthread. It was a disgrace for a nobleman to be seen to have a "profession". Plays and poems circulated privately among family and friends was one thing, and many did this. But for the public stage? Shock and horror! Several of de Vere's contemporaries also published under pseudonyms, or anonymously.

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Were these works the blockbusters of their day or were they just another stage performance?

••

Shakespeare's plays were hugely popular in their day, and enormously profitable for the companies that owned the rights. Hence the pirate editions. Curiously, the plays fell out of favor for several years, more or less until the cottage industry in Stratford got things going again.

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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 3  

Wait, wait - any hope of a JB Shakespeare comic, or are we just batting around ideas of JB doing something about the identity? (Noting that he vaguely demured to Al's question - I'm not reading anything in to that deflection)

Because I would sacrifice a loved one to see JB tackle Macbeth.

What? I'm just saying...

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Andrew Hess
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 4  

Keith -

 I had *not* heard of this flick!

Rhys Ifans is an interested choice for the Earl, I must say.

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Andrew Hess
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 5  

JB mentioned a few months ago an idea he had about Elizabethian England that I'm hoping this might be.

But frankly, he could do a comic about Shakspear's grocery list and I would buy it.

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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 6  

What is the reasoning that de Vere would have some things published but not the works atributed to Shakespeare?

When was the name Shakespeare first connected to the works? When the plays were originally perfromed would an author be announced?

It was stated that there is no record of a Shakespeare being paid for the plays, did writers using pseudonyms recieve payment?

Would a paper trail not regarding financial issues, eg. letters, be less likely for a commoner than a noble?

My understanding is that the life of the man from Stratford has a begining and a end that is documented. Is there missing information about what he was doing for periods in the middle?

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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 7  

One of my favorite bits of, what? Trivia? A few years back the folks at the Folger Library in Washington took a closer look at a portrait of Shakespeare they'd had hanging there for decades, and discovered some overpainting. When that was removed, they found the portrait was actually of. . . Edward de Vere.

 

Didn't the restoration prove that was Hugh Hamersley?

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Mikael Bergkvist
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 8  

A quick look-up says it's Sir Hugh Hamersley, yes.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 9  

What little is known is this:

The plays we now refer to as being written by William Shakespeare, were attributed to a "William Shakespeare" at the time.

There was a common man named "William Shakespeare" ( often referred to as Shaksper, though it is pointed out that spelling, even of names, was very "liberal" at the time) from Stratford who was associated with the theatre profession in London at the time. He is known to have acted a little and invested some money in one of the theatres staging plays attributed to "Shakespeare".

There is no record of anyone else named "William Shakespeare"  (or variants thereof) in London or associated with the theatre at this time.

None of the other candidates (and there are many)  in the "authorship controversy" have a similar name.  It then follows that most likely either the man from Stratford is the real Shakespeare or "Shakespeare" is a pseudonym. The majority of the most central scholars on Shakespeare and the Elizabethan age do not find the pseudonym theory credible.

The arguments to support the claim of the pseudonym are these:

1) A man as common as the man from Stratford could not possibly have neither the education nor the diverse cultural knowledge of both high and low society needed to write the plays. But a nobleman naturally would.

2) The absence of contemporary mentions in Stratford of Shakespeare's career as a playwright is an indication that he was not in fact a playwright. The absence of any mention of the plays being written by Edward DeVere is because he would have written them under a pseudonym to avoid his peers thinking ill of him. Apparently such concerns are not valid for the man from Stratford, but only for DeVere.

3) When selecting a pseudonym for himself as a playwright, DeVere, instead of creating a unique pen-name, used a very distinct name belonging to a (supposedly) illiterate, uncouth, litigious sometime actor and grain merchant who was so clearly not a playwright that it wouldn't fool anyone for a second. This obviously in an effort to disguise the fact that it was a pen name.

I think that about sums it up.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | 10  

Some interesting quotes from Diana Price via PBS "Frontline":

>>People want to gravitate to an answer. And I have to say that the first time I read through the case for Oxford, I could feel the tug of wanting to embrace it and buy into it. And even though I called myself a provisional Oxfordian for those couple years when I was doing recreational reading -- before I really started to do this seriously -- even at the point where I said, "I have to back off this theory," I could feel the tug of wanting to emotionally commit to it. And, you know, people fall in love with Oxford. They go way off the deep end.

And when you start to talk to people who are absolutely committed -- they cannot conceive that you would have a doubt about it -- now, that's a belief system. And what I've been trying to do is back up to the factual, to the evidence. And I also frame my question very differently than do Oxfordians. Oxfordians say, "Well, was it Shakespeare or was it Oxford?" And I say, "Was it Shakespeare or was it not Shakespeare?" And that, to me, is the first question that needs to be answered before you can begin to look at the candidates and test them....

I would never say, and I do not say, that Shakespeare of Stratford could not possibly have overcome the disadvantages of his provincial upbringing or the questions about his schooling. I'm not saying he couldn't have done it. I am saying that if he did it, we'd have some evidence to show how he did it. And since we don't have the evidence -- and because he is unique in the absence of that kind of evidence -- that's why I have a doubt as to his authorship.<<
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 25 June 2010 at 12:46am | IP Logged | 11  

Thank you for that quote, Michael. I guess the key word here is "doubt". Do we reason to doubt that the Stratford Man wrote the plays? Based on what I know, I'd say yes. The doubt is reasonable.
But as for whom actually wrote the plays? It's like the identity of Jack the Ripper - we'll never know.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 June 2010 at 3:22am | IP Logged | 12  

What is the reasoning that de Vere would have some things published but not the works atributed to Shakespeare?

••

There are a couple of dozen poems signed by or ascribed to de Vere, that were published in various collections thru the latter part of the 1500s. Minor, and usually unauthorized, publications like this were not uncommon.

===

When was the name Shakespeare first connected to the works? When the plays were originally perfromed would an author be announced?

••

The first time the name attaches in print is with the publication of "Venus and Adonis" -- but, curiously, the name does not appear on the title page, where one might expect, but in the dedication.

It has also been pointed out that earliest appearances of the name as the Author spell it with a hyphen, as "Shake-speare". Significance has been read into the fact that it was a theatrical tradition to indicate fake or made-up names with this kind of hyphenation, with a lower case letter beginning the second part of the name. A more common spelling of a real name would have been Shake-Speare.

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It was stated that there is no record of a Shakespeare being paid for the plays, did writers using pseudonyms recieve payment?

••

That's probably a "yes and no" scenario -- tho the point here is that if "Shakespeare" was NOT a pseudonym, there should be records of Will Shakspere being paid for writing the plays, as there are records of so many of his other business dealings -- including the buying and selling of plays he did not write (and sometimes did not own!).

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Would a paper trail not regarding financial issues, eg. letters, be less likely for a commoner than a noble?

••

Perhaps -- but, again, this would render Shakspere unique as an author. No one, during his entire lifetime -- including himself -- committed to paper a single reference to him as a writer?

===

My understanding is that the life of the man from Stratford has a begining and a end that is documented. Is there missing information about what he was doing for periods in the middle?

••

The beginning, middle and end of Shakspere's life are quite well documented -- except on the matter of his literary work. There, as noted, there is only a blank.

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