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Topic: "...let’s not do any of that!" Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 07 February 2021 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

There's a reason why my LCS will suggest an older issue of Iron Man to a kid, you could pick up issue # Whatever and not only will there be action in it, you won't feel like you were dropped in the middle of nowhere when you read it. Even "good" comics nowadays feel like you have to have a "jumping-on point" to get into a story. A couple of us read the Robert Kirkman/Chris Smanee book Fire Power, which we all pretty much agree doesn't have a great pace to it. No way I'd give a random issue of it to someone I'm trying to hook on comics. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 February 2021 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I have kept in the front of my mind the old "every issue is the first issue for somebody" saw. In the Eighties, when the phrase "jumping-on point" started to be heard, if I was asked what was a good "jumping-on point" for a book I was working on, I would say "The current issue."

I admit to being a little less fastidious about this in ELSEWHEN. But, after all, I am playing to a specialized audience. I expect most of my readers to recognize references, even without footnotes.*

_________________________

* Going in, I made a deliberate decision to eschew footnotes.

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 08 February 2021 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

John W.:  "I think what Eric was originally getting at was how to make the content great again."

Vaguely sorta kinda maybe. I was more hoping to see exactly what it was that made comics great originally. I can tell you how I loved Supergirl or Fantastic Four or Legion or Nova stories that pulled me in. But I can't tell you that these features could be applied to make comics palatable and salable again. I don't know if that day has in fact passed or not. But I was hoping for "that Daredevil run - characters were so realistic and the scenery was great" or "that Hulk series had Hulk delving into his personality - cool!" or "I still love Spidey's unique power set" or "Just imagine - the mightiest heroes of our time have banded together as the JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA!"

If DC or Marvel are still doing it - great (if unlikely)! If they're not doing it anymore - what was it that YOU thought made 'em great?
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John Wickett
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Posted: 09 February 2021 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"what was it that YOU thought made 'em great?"  Great question.  As a kid growing up with comics, I'd say it was all of the following:
  • Larger than life characters who were inspiring and heroic because they had the power to do almost anything, but chose to do the right thing regardless of personal cost
  • Heroes like Spiderman who were human as well as superhuman, and had struggles we could identify with.
  • Great villains with compelling back stories
  • World building- the aforementioned "grandeur" brought about by the incredible imaginations of Lee & Kirby, who constantly introduced new and unique ideas that continuously expanded the Marvel Universe.
  • Great artwork.
  • Fast paced, action packed stories that still managed to include character development.
Something I wouldn't have understood as a child, but I recognize looking back- less editorial interference.  The Big 2 have become too reliant on crossovers and big events, so that creators are told where they have to go on a book (in effect being told what stories to tell) in order to have all of the pieces in places where editors need them to be to accomodate the next event. 

Some of the best and most iconic runs from the bronze age of Marvel are from times when a creative team took over a low selling title and was allowed to cut loose and run with their creative vision, ie the All-New X-Men, including Byrne's run, Frank Miller on Daredevil, Jim Starlin on the cosmic stuff, etc.   


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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 February 2021 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply


 QUOTE:
 Some of the best and most iconic runs from the bronze age of Marvel are from times when a creative team took over a low selling title and was allowed to cut loose and run with their creative vision, ie the All-New X-Men, including Byrne's run, Frank Miller on Daredevil, Jim Starlin on the cosmic stuff, etc.

Um...
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 05 March 2021 at 4:40pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 Eric Sofer wrote:
Vaguely sorta kinda maybe. I was more hoping to see exactly what it was that made comics great originally. I can tell you how I loved Supergirl or Fantastic Four or Legion or Nova stories that pulled me in. But I can't tell you that these features could be applied to make comics palatable and salable again… If DC or Marvel are still doing it - great (if unlikely)! If they're not doing it anymore - what was it that YOU thought made 'em great?


I normally don't dig up month old threads, but my brain keeps trying to think of an answer to this question ever since I read it. Attempting a proper answer for both Marvel and DC was taking up a LOT of words, so we'll just do Marvel. Even that was getting too wordy, but I trimmed where I could. (Honest!)

As an 80s lad, my feelings of individual books varied, but what I liked about Marvel was the sense of history and continuity. I liked the references to old characters and stories, the sense that anything could happen, etc. And I liked the sense of a “universe.” Malekith opens the Casket of Ancient Winters in Thor, and Spider-Man’s dealing with an unseasonable snow storm. Captain America and Thor are unavailable for an Avengers mission because Captain America is helping Deathlok and Thor’s rescuing Jane Foster. Hawkeye and Daredevil both dated the same woman. A former X-Men villain turned Avenger is now living on the moon with the Human Torch’s ex-girlfriend. And all of those stories were out there waiting to be found if I was so inclined. So I guess that’s what “made Marvel great” for me.   

The problem for me is that, over time, for the most part the characters stopped being characters and started being properties. Some of that can’t be helped. You get older, more and more writers play in the sandbox, and characterization “glitches” than you can gloss over when reading back issues are more noticeable when you’re reading them “live”. There’s also the situation that something that’s a “cool development” for you is a horribly wrong decision for someone else and next you thing you know they’re hired to write the books. So depending on how “the problem” is “fixed” (and how much the strings show in the process)… They’re simply trying to write the best Fone Bone Man stories they can, but in the process of re-establishing something they liked about him, they could lose something you liked.

Other things I think CAN be helped – writers need to do their homework and editors need to make them. There should be some real thought put in when deciding whether or not to do continuity implants. Don’t be ruled by continuity but don’t blatantly ignore it for no useful purpose. Don’t let the adaptation overrule the original. If more than one writer is writing a character, make sure they’re talking to each other (or at least make sure the editors are). If you want to do a storyline where some characters are friends or someone has a dark secret, do the work yourself. Don’t just do it by decree. Don’t have characters talk like/act like comic fans.

Outside of the stories themselves, the marketing could be a lot less annoying. I understand we’re past the point where a writer simply takes over with the latest issue and continues until they’re done, at which point the new writer takes over with the latest issue. But random #1s are annoying at best and misleading at worst. If I buy the first issue of a series, I should be at the beginning of something, not a “jump on point.” Avoid goofy numbers like #16.HU or #503.1. Just do numbers in sequence. Don’t make your major storylines separate mini-series. Ease up on the tie-ins and when you do have them, make sure there’s a point to them beyond price gouging your fans and that those who invest in the whole shebang actually get a “richer” story out of it rather than confusion because some tie-ins don’t align with others. Space out your events – if X-Men’s doing something major this month, save the big Avengers thing for a few months later. Don’t flood the market with titles. Give individual books a chance to sink or swim rather than dooming them to failure by having a dozen other things kicking off at the same time. Understand that there are plenty of people who would be happy to buy an X-Men comic but aren’t interested in buying 12 every month. I guess it’s technically easier to try to sell 20 comics to one person instead of one comic to 20 people, but eventually that person’s going to get tired of it.

(Updated because I screwed up the quote box.)

Edited by Dave Phelps on 05 March 2021 at 4:41pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 05 March 2021 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The introduction of characters such as Ms. Marvel, Nova, She-Hulk, and Spider-Woman.

I'll take that line as an example that I feel represents the answers on the thread.

That moment when Marvel "stopped being great" was more than 40 years ago. 4-0.

I don't like Marvel's (or DC's for that matter) current output neither but turning back time to 40 or 50 years ago isn't really an option, nor would it make sense to try to replicate what they did back there. Current context and sensibilities are incredibly different.

Not that it can't be made better, I think it definitely can but facing forward not back (at least not THAT back).

I'm beating the Beatles horse to death I know but it's like saying you don't like current pop music so what should be done is bring some band to do what the Beatles did. It doesn't make sense.




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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 05 March 2021 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Another thing, as with mainstream pop music, "we" are not supposed to like it.

The target audience should be kids and teens. We are supposed to yell at a cloud and get back to our classic Marvel reprints or remastered Pink Floyd vinyls. (I know that's extreme and of course adults can enjoy current comics and music but bear with me).

The real problem is that with comics, that isn't the case. They are indeed being targeted to other "type" of adults and middle aged men (less discerning?) than we bunch but it's still a big mistake in strategy.

I've read a lot of "anti-movies" sentiment in the answers but the movies and animated series and basically everything BUT the comics are being hugely successful. So the problem is not the source material itself.

If I were to provide a "solution" for this my first instinct would be to study them deeply (movies, animated, marketing) to get what they're DOING RIGHT.

 

 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 05 March 2021 at 10:33pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

If someone wanted to do what National/DC did in the late '30s-early '40s, or what Marvel did in the early '60s, here's what they'd have to do: Get a competent editor to oversee things, and three or more quality writers/scripters, twice as many artists/plotters, at least two letterers and a colorist who can pay attention, and... start something new. That's what they did. New creations set in and for their 'today', that drifted together, formed a group (or two), and were exciting, in part because they were something new. Superman was totally a new thing! When Batman was new he was exciting to learn about, when Spider-Man was new his world was new too... if you keep rehashing old characters you can never have that.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 05 March 2021 at 10:34pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 06 March 2021 at 12:44am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

and... start something new.

------

Reading the recent Stan Lee bio there was a quote by him that made me think.

It was something like (paraphrasing): "What we did at that early stage of Marvel was ground the superheroes stories in reality, this character has super powers and a costume but the rest of it was as realistic as possible."

Of course that sounds ridiculous now, if you read those stories today they are anything but realistic. But they were compared to what came before. 
They made DC's heroes look silly.

And I kept thinking "well, that's quite similar to what Alan Moore said 25 years later". He just added another level of "realistic" that made what came before look silly. It was basically the same recipe.

And it was very, very successful but it didn't get the "company" treatment 60s Marvel had. And he quit mainstream superhero books soon enough and there really wasn't anyone who could take that mantle (loads of imitators sure, but few that really understood that the approach was not just adding sex & violence).

Many here will say that his influence ruined comics but for me it was quite the opposite, nobody really followed his example and they imitated its most superficial aspects instead of following the core which was according to himself: "do something new, go forward".

I feel like since then everything in the comics industry is going backwards instead, trying to revive a Silver Age era that is in the past. Of course, I'm biased just the same as you guys, the comics that made me a fan were 80s comics so maybe I'm just trying to get back to "my" golden age.

Pffft. Complex stuff.

 




Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 06 March 2021 at 1:28am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 March 2021 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Reading the recent Stan Lee bio there was a quote by him that made me think.

It was something like (paraphrasing): "What we did at that early stage of Marvel was ground the superheroes stories in reality, this character has super powers and a costume but the rest of it was as realistic as possible."

Of course that sounds ridiculous now, if you read those stories today they are anything but realistic.

••

Stan wasn't talking about the STORIES. The moment a superhero steps onto the stage, the story ceases to be "realistic". But those early Marvel comics were set in a world that WAS realistic. No imaginary cities (after the false start of "Central City" in FF #1), recognizable fashions, cars, celebrities. Even (gasp) garbage in the streets.

Realistic.

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David Teller
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Posted: 06 March 2021 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Superhero Comics are for children and need to be available in children's sales channels. They are not. 

Superhero Comics are in a classic product lifecycle - at the end. They are a legacy product that will die with this final aged generation of readers. 

The superheroes will carry on. 
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