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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 1
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I voted for Perot as “None of the Above”. At that time I didn’t fully comprehend the Electoral College. Now I do.
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Paul Reis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 919
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 2
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Michael P said "... but they think his policies and, yes, achievements are excellent. In their assessment, the good far outweighs the bad"
that is the same "argument" i get when talking to a supporter. i counter with an "oh, i must have missed them, what are some of his achievements?" and then, usually, silence ...
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3135
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 3
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Without a doubt, it's gonna be messy when we finally get to the point where everyone agrees that the EC can be retired. We'd also then have to deal with the two Senators per state question - why does Wyoming (pop. 580K) get the exact same voice in the Senate as Texas (pop. 29M)? And then drill down to correct gerrymandered districts - which would solve so many problems, not least of which would be the value of an individual vote.
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3135
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 4
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I should say, I used to be a supporter of the Electoral College, since I always feared a bad faith populist candidate could come in and really wreak havoc. But, well. Anyhow.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 5
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AMERICA was created out of an idealized notion of EQUALITY (unless you were not a man or not White). There was a raging paranoia that we might end up with some states being “more equal” than others. So we get the Electoral College and two senators per state. Realistically, the whole idea of the Senate makes no sense. A elected House of Lords? Why? Checks and balances? Yeah, that’s working well. The Founding Fathers were still in awe of the British parliament, so they gave us an elected King and elected Lords, when all we really need is the piece in the middle.
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 6
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I agree, Dave. Hard to be a proponent of an election mechanism that allows the very thing it is designed to prevent. But ultimately how do you design a democracy to can combat the wholesale ignorance and stupidity rampant in politics today? The Q garbage is bad enough, but the number of supporters is truly frightening.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12429
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 7
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From the movie/musical "1776":
QUOTE:
| ...what would posterity think we were? Demi-gods? We're men, no more no less, trying to get a nation started against greater odds than a more generous God would have allowed. |
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3135
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 8
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Eric Ladd wrote:
| how do you design a democracy to can combat the wholesale ignorance and stupidity rampant in politics...? |
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I don't think you do, really - in a true democracy, you're allowed to believe whatever you want to believe. The benefit of eliminating the EC, the senator count (or the bicameral idea altogether), and gerrymandering is that you make the impact those numbers have more diffuse and less powerful.
After all, the German-Amercian Bund was able to hold a 22,000-strong PRO Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden in 1939, and that didn't stop us from ultimately entering the war against the Germans.
Edited by Dave Kopperman on 24 August 2020 at 10:19am
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30886
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 9
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I just read an article that describes the Trumpism that has become the
Republican Party as a cult. I think that fits pretty well.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3004
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 10
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Republicans have been a cult in search of a charismatic leader for as long as I remember. The last Bush administration was 8 long years of semi-messianic delusion, at least until they all turned on him. This is a party that celebrated Dick Cheney's graciousness in forcing a man he shot in the face to go on television and apologize.
I'm a little concerned that, Jeanine Pirro excepted, there hasn't been a mass adoption of orange makeup. What are they waiting for?
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 24 August 2020 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 11
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David M. - what are they waiting for? Orange spice season.
I think that the Electoral College was a great idea at the very start. But let's remember, the Found Fathers set up the Constitution to be a living document, and one subject to change. They KNEW the future would be different, with different needs for the Republic.
But times have changed, and changes are thus required. One of the outmoded ideas is the Electoral College. Another one, in my honest assessment, is the Second Amendment. Notwithstanding baring arms or not, the REASON for it is long gone.
A Constitutional is more than overdue. And so are serious changes. It's not a holy document; it's a guide that changes as time passes.
And orange Executive Orders ain't the way to do it.
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