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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

It is all in how you interpret the data. If you look at the data per capita then black people are killed three times more than whites.

Blacks also commit a disproportionate amount of crime per capita, don't they?  27% of all crime by 13% of the population.  38% of violent crimes.  Which is likely closer to 6% of the population since it is black males much more than black females committing violent crimes.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Defund the police" does not mean what people think it means.

Police officers have been pressed into service as social workers, civil mediators, community safety watch, animal control, drug intervention, mental health professionals, and more-- NONE of which they have the training to do.

Advocates of this so-called "defund" movement want to redirect police budgets (which are often astronomical) away from hiring MORE cops and buying military surplus weaponry-- NONE of which will solve the problems that need to be fixed. Instead, they want money redirected to rebuild the national mental health system that Reagan demolished, to build more shelters for the homeless, to fund more drug intervention programs and community safety programs.

Basically, the goal would be to pare the police role back to what it is supposed to be, while building up resources that can shoulder (appropriately) the jobs shoved onto the jobs as those resources were dismantled and defunded in years past.

So... it's not about getting rid of police. It's about fixing policing and making it what it ought to be, instead of what it is.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

For an example of something Minneapolis might well do soon, consider Camden, NJ. 

Camden was one of the most dangerous cities in the United States, and a sometime "murder capital" as well. The police there were regarded as corrupt, violent and irredeemable.

The city ABOLISHED its police department, forcing every officer to reapply for their job. Those with records of complaints were not rehired. The department was smaller, and social network resources (like those mentioned above) were either expanded or recreated.

From what I hear, the results have been very positive.
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

But is it the "people" who are at fault for not knowing the meaning?  I mean, Merriam Webster's defines defunding as:  to withdraw funding from.

If that is not what is being done, perhaps "defunding" isn't what everyone should be saying and proposing?



Edited by Andy Mokler on 09 June 2020 at 11:53am
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 5 post reply


Basically, the goal would be to pare the police role back to what it is supposed
to be, while building up resources that can shoulder (appropriately) the jobs
shoved onto the jobs as those resources were dismantled and defunded in
years past.

So... it's not about getting rid of police. It's about fixing policing and making it
what it ought to be, instead of what it is.

+++++++

Well said Andrew.
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James Johnson
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

When it takes longer to obtain a barber's licence than to go through training to become a police office, there is a problem.

Also, another thing that you do not see at all is officers on foot patrol.

Not engaging with citizens that live in the neighborhood where you are on patrol can cause much friction too.


Edited by James Johnson on 09 June 2020 at 11:56am
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I'm assuming that he was trying to say that more white men are killed by cops. Which is true by virtue of them making up a larger share of the population. But that's not the same thing as saying that white men are more likely to be killed than black men.

The most recent stats I can find:
2018 Violent Crimes
Whites - 288,620.  Shot to death by police - 399 = .0014%
Blacks - 187,420.  Shot to death by police - 209 = .0011%

Statistically, that's 21.5% more likely whites are shot than blacks.

-------

I'm not sure what math you are doing here, but I have to ask that you stop saying "Statistcally [this], when it's clear that you haven't taken a stats class.

"White men, statistically, are far more likely to be shot by a cop than black men" means that white men as a population have a higher chance of being a shot by a cop than black men as a population. And just by the numbers you've thrown up, that's patently false. Because you have to include in your calculation the number of deaths with respect to the total number of white men, the number of deaths with respect to the total number of black men, and the number of men as a whole.

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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply



Anyone watching the protests unfold at the outset might have been surprised
to see the Camden, NJ police walking alongside protestors . Camden has been
notorious for homicide, crime, drugs and systematic racism. Surely it must
have burned down to the ground when the protests started. But it didn't,
because they instituted police reform years earlier that worked for real change.   
The police system was so broken that the city fired all of the police (including
the police chief) and made them re-apply to the county. A lot got re-hired, and
they restructured the system.

This interview is worth your time - Camden's former police chief Scott
Thomson being interviewed by NPR's Mary Louise Kelly about how and why
Camden tried to change the police from "warriors" to "guardians:"


Former Chief Of Reformed Camden, N.J.,
Force: Police Need 'Consent Of The People'



I was born in Camden, and it has been heartbreaking to see it struggle over the
years. This has resulted in real change. If the word "defund" is too much, it is
because I don't think it can actually happen. But I support the use of the word
- it's illustrates the need for radical change. Camden is the model for how to
start.



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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

It's great to learn about positive stories like Camden! There is real hope in that. I hope Minneapolis will be another such story in time. That it takes videos of George Floyd and Eric Garner being killed in the street in broad daylight, a young woman in her own home, or a young man in his Grandmother's yard with a phone looking nothing like a gun, to get there is to our collective shame.
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply


It's promising! But Camden still has a long way to go. My mother grew up on
Browning Street, and my family's first apartment was a block away on Sayrs
Avenue. We all care a lot about Camden.

I am hoping the changes we see will mean reform for the police, and the
communities dealing with systemic racism and poverty as well.

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

If "defunding" actually meant reforming, then the movement would be called "reforming the police". The people protesting in the streets are serious adults, and they clearly want to replace the police with something else, and I take them at face value. 

The media desperately wants to create a narrative, that the death of George Floyd has given rise to a movement that is changing America for the better. Policing will improve, racial problems will finally be solved. The narrative would be great if it were not pure fantasy. 

Looters have cleared out the shopping districts of every major city. Countless videos of all-out lawlessness are all over the web. Protestors, who number in the millions, are more concerned about the cops than the rioters and looters, but the protesters are not the rest of the country, which is probably scared to death. 

And now Democrats want to "defund the police". Even if it does work, there will be an initial burst of chaos and crime. And its exactly what people don't want. Say hello to four more years of The Idiot. 
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Peter Hicks
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Posted: 09 June 2020 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Defund is a very inflammatory word, but it is the word the BLM movement has latched on to because they want something that sounds like radical change rather than trimming around the edges of a system.  Unfortunately, the word invites right wingers to setup a straw man argument that there will be zero police anymore.  Which to my disappointment, some people did in this very message thread.  

The Prince of Lies hopes he can make this a wedge issue against Biden.  But Biden saw the trap a mile away and early on said he does not favour defunding police forces.  
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