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Peter Hicks
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

"Overall, I don't see a lot of innocent people being mistreated by the police.."
***********
Are you black?  Have you asked anybody who is black?  Completely innocent people going about their daily lives are constantly pulled over by police cars or carded in the streets because of their skin colour.
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David Miller
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Overall, I don't see..."

I'll never understand why people invoke their personal ignorance as some kind of dispositive argument.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

It is my impression that the police are generally underfunded and understaffed as it is.  Capping or re-distributing those things don't seem like a solution.

Police may not be perfectly equipped to handle every possible scenario but they don't have the resources and manpower to deal with the things that they are suited for.  

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They don't have the resources and manpower to deal with things that they are suited for EXACTLY BECAUSE police are being asked to handle scenarios that they are not equipped and trained for. If you stop thinking of the police as a one-size-fits-all solution for every problem, we can make sure they are properly vetted, trained, and equipped for the situations that require police.



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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

He isn't a symbol of black people being mistreated, he is a criminal that finally went too far.

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Buying something with a fake $20 bill is a bridge too far and deserves execution? Did the officer have access to his history when they decided to kneel on his neck?
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Sorry Michael, you're just too practiced at twisting anything and everything into something else.

I think you enjoy seeing racism and abuse in everything.

That you would suggest that my opinion is invalid because I'm not black is...well, racist.  That you would assume that I was speaking only about black people also displays your bias.

But, I'll offer clarification even though it would never occur to you to ask for it.  I was talking about the myriad videos of police violence.  Generally speaking, I see people who are at the very least, non-compliant.  And IMO, if you challenge the police, you're the instigator in most cases.  

If there are truly hundreds or thousands of examples of innocent bystanders being targeted and harassed and abused by the police, I haven't seen them.  I've seen handfuls of videos that are rarely an innocent person minding their own business.  
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Andy>>That you would suggest that my opinion is invalid because I'm not black is...well, racist.<<

You have no idea what the word "racist" means in this context.  In the systemic sense, it is distinct from mere bigotry.  In precisely the same way men can absolutely love women (willing to die to protect them even) and still be sexist, one need not be bigoted toward black people (or even give them a second thought) and yet propagate and benefit from a system which marginalizes them.  

>>I think you enjoy seeing racism and abuse in everything.<<

Why would you think anyone would enjoy such a thing?

If we get through this without changing opinions, nothing has changed.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply


 QUOTE:
Sorry Michael, you're just too practiced at twisting anything and everything into something else.

Hint: Michael is spelled M-I-C-H-A-E-L. Peter is spelled P-E-T-E-R.


 QUOTE:
I think you enjoy seeing racism and abuse in everything.

As a POC, I actually don't enjoy seeing racism. Which is why I feel it's important to call it out, so I don't have to deal with that shit.


 QUOTE:
That you would suggest that my opinion is invalid because I'm not black is...well, racist.

As a reminder, Peter is spelled P-E-T-E-R.

I am not Peter, but to speak to his point: Asking if someone is black during a national dialogue about the police mistreatment of black people is not racist. The black experience in America is different from the white experience. So it's absolutely relevant to ask if you can personally speak to the black experience. Hint: "Some of my best friends are..." won't be the way to go.


 QUOTE:
That you would assume that I was speaking only about black people also displays your bias.

It's a bit disingenuous to state in a thread about "Defunding the Police", which is a response to the Black Lives Matters protest, which is a response to the murder of George Floyd by the police that the discussion doesn't include black people.

Once again: Michael is spelled M-I-C-H-A-E-L. Peter is spelled P-E-T-E-R.

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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:18pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The whole idea went from interesting, tell me more, to incredibly muddy very quickly. I hope it gets clarified further because Minneapolis is going to look to many like a bunch of kids with little practical experience coming up with stuff off the top of their heads... whereas in Trump you get an old con man fraud coming up with stuff off the top of his head. Usually a fight against a union is far right territory too.

Redistributing community resources including policing perhaps?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I'll speak to my own privilege, since white people get all fragile and defensive if you point out that they have it:

I once served on a jury for a rape case. During voir dire, the very first potential juror that was called up broke down in tears, because she had been a rape victim and wasn't sure she could deal with being a juror in this case. The judge excused the room and asked that if anyone had similar concerns, they could come speak to him privately. When we returned, another 5 or 6 women were gone. Of the women who remained, I'd say that 3 out of 4 answered "Yes" to the question of whether they or someone they knew had dealt with sexual assault or rape. Of the men who were asked, most said "No."

In this case, the women's perspective on sexual violence was very different from the men's perspective. Would it be sexist to ask whether one was a man or woman with regard to how they viewed the prevalence of sexual violence?

Also, if anyone is still confused: Michael is spelled M-I-C-H-A-E-L. Peter is spelled P-E-T-E-R.
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:31pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I apologize, 2/3 of the last posts I read were by Michael and I conflated the points.

That you have to keep referring to it means...?  Maturity?  

As far as police brutality and mistreatment, I don't see the evidence that it is a "black" problem.  Perhaps it is a police problem but even that is statistically debatable.  

And yes, to suggest that I can't see something because of the color of my skin is racist.  There are anecdotal examples on both sides of the conversation so I don't know how reliable or useful those examples are.  I've been harassed and pulled over by the police.  Does that mean that they are targeting white guys in Camrys? 


Edited by Andy Mokler on 08 June 2020 at 11:36pm
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQqlbmaNK4

"There won't be defunding, there won't be dismantling of our police..."

Hopefully he doesn't backpedal.  
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 08 June 2020 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Andy Mokler wrote:
It is my impression that the police are generally underfunded and understaffed as it is.  Capping or re-distributing those things don't seem like a solution.

LAPD Budget for 2019 was $1.18 billion dollars.  

$1.18 billion.

Tell me how that is "generally underfunded and understaffed".  Please.
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