Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 13 Next >>
Topic: Defunding the Police Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13265
Posted: 29 June 2020 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

If you want to fix a very broken car, you have to throw money at it. Get better mechanics. Do complete overhauls.

You don't "defund" the process.   Defunding the police actually means punishing them. Making them do more with less staff, training, equipment and pay. 

——-

The analogy is more: If you have a very broken car, instead of continually throwing thousands of dollars to keep an old, unsafe, environmentally unfriendly car running, you “defund” the money wasted on repairs and buy a new, modern car that won’t have that problem.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 6969
Posted: 29 June 2020 at 11:27pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Until you get rid of the rat/snitch mentality, where officers won't intervene or report on their fellow officers due to fear of retaliation (ie, backup not showing or being slow to arrive if they are in trouble), its going to be hard to fix things. 

It would be better if officers were more afraid of going down as an accomplice if they don't either intervene or report on their fellow officers when they witness another cop either committing brutality or abusing their power. (Under this idea, any cop witnessing another officer using a chokehold on someone and not intervening would be considered an accomplice to the crime.)

There needs to be absolutely zero tolerance as far as chokeholds are concerned. And it should be a law passed at the federal level. So if an officer uses a chokehold and the department either covers it up or makes an excuse to do nothing, the feds arrest the officer, and everyone involved in letting him get away with it loses their job. And when I say zero tolerance, I mean automatic firing for using, with any and all evidence sent to the prosecution if it results in a criminal trial.


Edited by Brian Floyd on 29 June 2020 at 11:28pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 3823
Posted: 30 June 2020 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Joe Z.: I have a slight disagreement with your phrasing. "...there's no guaranteed way of determining a person's character, or whether they would stay "good" under chronic pressure." Sure there is. Put 'em on the job and see how they react. If they don't do a good enough job - and we need that to be a very high bar - you fire them. In any other job, if someone does an egregiously poor job, they get fired right away. Period.

We can't predict how good or bad a person will be as a policeman, although past performance and other markers can suggest it. Again, that's the same as any other job; we can make an educated guess, but that's ALL we can do.

"...otherwise everybody would be responsible for interpreting and enforcing law. We had that once, it was called the Wild West. Minneapolis might be going 'Back to the Future 3'."
 
I dunno if that's exactly right. Everybody might be responsible for observing and obeying laws, and there would be no NEED for enforcement. I don't know a lot about law-and-order in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. I know there were marshals, and traveling judges. Was that enough? Well, we didn't wipe ourselves out. But I am not sure that's enough of a criterion.

Loved the BttF3 reference. :)

"Defunding the police actually means punishing them. Making them do more with less staff, training, equipment and pay. You end up with police who are even more corrupt and abusive."

I don't know if I agree entirely with this definition. Punish the bad ones, certainly, by firing them. But let's not jump on the good cops; they face a dangerous job every day and are never 100% sure they'll come back in one piece, at 98.6. Get the good police as the force, and give them the funds they require to be safe, and to enforce safety.

I still hate the use of the word "defund."

"The thing about putting social workers on the front lines sounds nice. But you end up with situations where the perpetrators keep on running away, and harming the "peace officers" who try to get them to stay. The real cops show up just to collect bodies."

On the same token, I have inferred that sending out a single police officer on a call has become VERY rare. Usually it's two policemen. So why not apply that to, say, what seems to be a social crisis? A homeless expert and a "general" policeman. Or even three responders. That might work if we don't "defund" the police.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John OConnor
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1066
Posted: 30 June 2020 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Brian Floyd -- just curious -- have you ever tried to pull someone off another person, or fight with someone larger than you? If you have, what is easy? The rush to change things is, in the end, going to cause more problems than it will fix. 



Edited by John OConnor on 30 June 2020 at 3:57pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Shawn Kane
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 2934
Posted: 01 July 2020 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I don't think chokeholds should be banned. The martial arts I've trained in teach them and I know my friend who is a federal probation officer has to be trained in grappling techniques that employ a bunch of BJJ holds. I think the key is training the use of the holds and administering them where they're appropriate. Don't escalate a situation just because you can.

Edited by Shawn Kane on 01 July 2020 at 9:06am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 3823
Posted: 01 July 2020 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Shawn - chokeholds are a way of killing someone IF THEY ARE NOT TRAINED. You note that you've trained in martial arts. Have you ever fought in an monitored situation? I suspect that you have more training and disciplined than a police officer has - rightly so, as that's not their main attack, and it wouldn't be the right focus.

I agree to avoid applying holds when inappropriate - and we've seen more than a few horrible situations - but is it easy enough to make that call in mid-fight? (And no, I'm not counting George Floyd - four against one isn't an appropriate situation when it might be just as easy to say, "We have you outnumbered and all four of us WON'T miss." And that whole situation was fucked up anyhow.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Shawn Kane
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 2934
Posted: 01 July 2020 at 11:29am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Valid points, Eric. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 1991
Posted: 01 July 2020 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

A taser was meant to be a safe alternative to something more offensive, but we saw it used multiple times on a non-English speaking large man confused at an airport by the RCMP called in and he died. Short of a real Mr. Spock's nerve pinch for dummies manual there will be unforeseen issues.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5598
Posted: 01 July 2020 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Holy crap. Where do you go from here?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/01/politics/donald-
trump-black-lives-matter-confederate-race/index.html


Trump says Black Lives Matter is a symbol of hate. This after posting a
clip a few days ago of a white supremisist. Irony just flies over that
guy’s head
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brandon Frye
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 November 2004
Posts: 1221
Posted: 04 July 2020 at 10:56am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

And the NRA gets one step closer to their 2nd Amendment utopia as a Florida sheriff threaten's to deputize gun owners if protesters get out of line. 



Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3916
Posted: 04 July 2020 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Because all that it takes to qualify to become a deputy is lawful gun ownership? Is anyone In an authority position thinking past move one?
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 120526
Posted: 04 July 2020 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Came across a disturbing statistic. In this country a police officer is killed in the line of duty every 2 days.
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 13 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login