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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Rebecca,

I wouldn't mind if you cut down on the Canada is holier than thou rhetoric.

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 08 April 2021 at 1:31pm
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John Wickett
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"It should be fairly simple to establish from medically educated people that what was done to Mr. Floyd would kill anybody not on any substances"

This might not be as simple as you suggest.  Medical experts disagree with each other all the time.  But lets suppose for the sake of discussion that you are right.  

After the state presents medical evidence showing the cause of death, then what?  Should the defense just concede the point?  If so, why have a defense at all?

Its their job to question the evidence.  

On a related note, it might surprise you as a lay person to learn how unreliable scientific/medical evidence often is.  

There are many types of scientific evidence that the public thinks are reliable because they've been popularized in shows like CSI, but whch have been thoroughly discredited in court.  Probably the most well known example in the legal community is bite marks.  For a few years, forensic dentists made a ton of money as experts, identifying defendants by using bite marks, but better science has now proven they are useless.  

Many types of evidence that used to be used in arson investigations, such as pour patterns, etc., have also been proven to be junk science.  In recent years, the science of fire investigations has changed dramatically.  

So don't be so certain.  It turns out educated people don't always know what they are talking about.


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Steven Myers
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

It turns out that, in the vast majority of cases, educated people know a lot more about a subject they are educated in than uneducated people know about the subject.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Canada is not anywhere near as screwed up as the U.S. has been and gotten lately. But yeah, go ahead and hate and get personal. many times I have tried to make it clear I care about the U.S., have worked and lived in the U.S., have relatives and loved ones. And I still get scores of people wanting to know how to emigrate to Canada.

I am separated for over a year now from some very loved ones thanks to U.S. actions and haven't half the venom I see here toward myself or Canada. Go ahead and add me to your f-ing ignore lists if you can't handle it. I am not wrong. This trial which should be very straight-forward is full of b.s. like so many other the entire world with a brain has witnessed.

Oops, another mass shooting all over the U.S. dominated television interrupting the bizarre long U.S. trial sure to come to a crappy conclusion. There's another problem Canada has much less of in comparison. Not being a simplistic social warrior show off I don't say we have no problems and never have. Mobs of activists deciding things through pressure and protest stunts is a dumb way to go and I'll keep telling people in the U.S. that because I do care.

I have a lot to be proud of Canada for, and some things I criticize it for, but if you don't think the U.S.A. is seriously fucked up beyond all recognition right now you are really clueless, and it's about to get worse with trials like this joke one practically being shoved down everyone's throats. Your country is totally at stake and it could go either way yet again. Nothing has been learned since the Rodney King attackers 'trial'. Stop whining about me and my using Canada and try to live up to the status of someone who can take it instead of dishing it out all the time maybe. Big wah!

:^)
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John Wickett
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Steven, of course that is true.  I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.  But think of it like this: what if a doctor or scientist is right 90% of the time?  In most situations, I'd say that is a pretty good success rate.  But in a court where guilt has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, a 10% error rate is huge.  

If we're just talking about the Floyd case, the doctors are probably going to be accurate with greater than 90% certainty, because the evidence doesn't appear to be too complex.

But if we're talking about the legal system in general (which I was, because Rebecca keeps throwing out lists of cases), then the degree of certainty could be much lower than 90%  A good example would be personal injury cases that involve spinal injuries.  If a case makes it to trial, you'll almost certainly have medical experts on both sides who are offering opposing opinions.  So two very educated people will examine the same evidence and come up with different conclusions.  Both are more qualified to form an opinion than an uneducated person would be, but neither expert is infallible, and one must be wrong.  

All evidence should be questioned.  An expert's credentials and experience should be weighed when considering a piece of evidence such as a medical opinion, but you should never just assume the opinion is right.




Edited by John Wickett on 08 April 2021 at 3:58pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Lawbreakers won't obey laws so let's not bother having any. This is the kind of pathetic 'debate' I see in U.S. media and from it's people all the time. It feels like we are right back having to relearn everything basic thing over again the hard way when it comes to the U.S. Doctors can disagree. Here's one scientist (out of one) who says climate change isn't real and one (out of ten thousand) saying it is... so, nobody can know, right? Can't even figure out what are established proven sources of information versus some anonymous made up crap on-line. The U.S.A. is at kindergarten level on so many things lately, and it totally pisses me off. It has fucked up my life and people I care about's lives, and our futures, so I'm saying get with it. Write letters to your representatives and carbon copy them to other politicians and media, request to meet representatives and volunteer with established issue based organizations, like I did in Canada (and got some real results so we are not half this fucked up right now).

If riding my high horse gets someone to think or to see it's worth it if genuinely you think your U.S. justice system is in any sort of good shape right now. Canada regularly sees all kinds of wacko or totally slanted political decisions from your courts and it's huge drag on both our economies, and we're still being massively punished for working with you on the Huawei executive extradition. Canada has been abused in the same ways over and over for a couple of decades that don't get reported there outside of financial journals and papers, strong armed and bullied. If I am a bully it's going to be with some intelligence and good intentions. There are lots worth things than my wanting you to rise to Canada's level, and all the people who have been bugging me for info on becoming Canadian since Bush Jr. was put in I take as proof this is mutual.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"Doctors can disagree."

Yes, that is the point. 

"Here's one scientist (out of one) who says climate change isn't real and one (out of ten thousand) saying it is... so, nobody can know, right?"

That's a terrible example, because you're assuming that if two scientists disagree, one must not be very good. 

Experts can have legitimate, informed opinions that differ, but are both supported by evidence; especially in areas where science is still developing, and our understanding is evolving.
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James Johnson
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Rebecca,

As an Black American, I can say that your last 2 comments are as close to the truth as anyone can get.

The past 5 years is like we've been living in a VERY BAD Sci-Fi movie.

The U.S. is in a heap of trouble on many fronts thanks to the Broke-Ass Former Reality Star. 


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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Canadian court decisions and laws are mostly going to be what I have to compare anything to. I see high profile federal and state decisions from the U.S. that make no sense compared to ones I see here. I see conflict of interest, broadcasting and publishing laws here that are entirely absent in the U.S. and the damage that does. I've seen our bad decisions, and I've seen a greater volume of them and more extreme departures from what seems to be reality occurring in the U.S. beyond the greater population would account for, about the same as with covid response. The U.S. should have about a third the deaths from covid if they had done about as badly as Canada (or we would have three times the number had we done as badly).

The pulmonologist brought in to educate the jury in the Chauvin trial today I guarantee would've been day one here, because we had a case at the Vancouver airport with RCMP killing a non-English speaker from Poland, and the cause was the issue where the trial began on, not where it ended after days of character and emotional revelations. We get a lot of spillover from the poor regulation and lack of regulation our neighbor is well known for. Also harassment in terms of overly litigious behavior we have tended not to foster.

The U.S. trials we see on television are entertaining to many perhaps, but they do not show quality in execution of justice. Every time one fails in that regard there is a ripple of negative effect on the country. If this one fails to produce a reasonably sane outcome there are likely to be big consequences in the streets. The fact that there are so many large mobs in conflict in the streets is a result of the continuing failure and corruption of the U.S. justice system and it's wasteful drawn out psuedo logical processes, whether someone in Canada, or France, or Botswana notices. In pointing out an extreme situation from relative normalcy I am not the problem. A non-white lawmaker knocking on a door closed on them would not face eight years in prison in Canada. A province attempting to restrict voting and obstruct voters through official means would simply not get far.

I really have thanked the ineffable realm or whatever deities and fates may be influencing things for the intelligence of people in the U.S. more times than I can count. One time was when Barack Obama was elected (now how quaint the flaws of Mitt Romney can seem). Right now I am doing what actions I can to oppose the anti-Asian rhetoric and violence that we are seeing in Canada just as the U.S. has been. I consider it as un-Canadian as I hope people consider it un-American; Asians were part of building this country and are still working to make it a better one.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 April 2021 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Right now I am doing what actions I can to oppose the anti-Asian rhetoric and violence that we are seeing in Canada just as the U.S. has been. I consider it as un-Canadian as I hope people consider it un-American; Asians were part of building this country and are still working to make it a better one.

———

As I said in another thread, the one time my parents ever cautioned me to be vigilant about discrimination was when we were in Canada. Canada currently has a more per capita incidents of anti-Asian hate crimes than the US, and they don’t have the excuse of blaming Trump. Anti-Asian sentiment is very Canadian and part of addressing that is owning up to it.

I have friends who looked at moving to Canada if Trump won a second term. I viewed that as white privilege. 
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John Wickett
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Posted: 09 April 2021 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"As I said in another thread, the one time my parents ever cautioned me to be vigilant about discrimination was when we were in Canada. Canada currently has a more per capita incidents of anti-Asian hate crimes than the US, and they don’t have the excuse of blaming Trump. Anti-Asian sentiment is very Canadian and part of addressing that is owning up to it."

I think we can acknowledge that it exists, without allowing it to define who we are. The vast majority of Americans and Canadians do not engage in racial violence, or approve of it. Is it part of the history of our countries?  Yes, and that history should never be ignored.  But is anti-asian sentiment intrinsic to the culture of Canada today?  I don't think so.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 09 April 2021 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"The pulmonologist brought in to educate the jury in the Chauvin trial today I guarantee would've been day one here"

I disagree.  You would start with the video tape and eye witnesses to establish what the police did, and create a timeline of what was happening to Floyd.

Then you would bring in the medical expert to explain the medical consequences of the officers' actions.  

You can't assume that jurors were familiar with the videotape before the trial commenced.  If a juror doesn't know that Chauvin had his knee on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes, or understand the timeline of Floyd's death before hearing the medical evidence, then it is harder for the juror to connect the doctor's testimony to what happened.

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