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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Well, no: Warren was the one with the clearly thought out plans, Bernie is the one with the vague and diffuse proposals.  Sure, Bernie's agenda is clear, and Biden's is a bit more diffuse.  But a clear and accessible, well-articulated plan?  That's not the Bernie I've observed.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

If you don't know how Bernie's plans work, its because you haven't been interested.  He explains it in every speech he gives.  He's even laid out detailed income tax bracket plans.  Biden has done no such thing.

But at any rate, my point was, if Biden is going to effectively critique Trump on issues related to trade, the economy, health care, and student debt he needs to lay something out on those issues.  Because right now, he talks about some vague half measures like adding a public option to Obamacare and letting people work off some of their student debt by volunteering.  That ain't gonna cut it.

Oh, and he did literally promise to cure cancer, Alzheimer's and diabetes on Tuesday.  Lets not forget that.
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

@Steve: Biden has done exactly such a thing.  Have you viewed the policy pages on his site?  That all seems pretty clear to me.  He's not as detailed as Warren, but he's easily as detailed as Bernie.
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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 06 March 2020 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Curing those diseases is ambitious, but as
far fetched as it used to be. Look at what
immunotherapy has done for survival rates
of certain cancers. A friend of mine was
given two years to live and is now cancer
free.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 07 March 2020 at 12:05am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I have seen what Biden has posted, again, it’s a bunch of band-aids that don’t resolve the problems in question.  Let me use a specific example: student debt. 

Bloomberg runs an ad, as proposed in this thread attacking Trump for doing nothing about it.  Bernie points out that Biden signed on to the bill to make student debt non-dischargeable in bankruptcy.  Biden says he wants to let people who can’t pay their student loans use volunteer hours to work them off and he’s going to make a few more grants and loans available to new students.

You don’t see the problem?  Again, if you’re going to attack Trump over a problem, you have to propose a solution to the problem yourself.  Otherwise it’s a wash.
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 07 March 2020 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

@Steve: We were debating the point of who has done a better job of articulating their plans, not who has the better plan.  I assume you're ceding my point that Biden and Sanders have equally clear plans if you're making a point-by-point takedown of one of Biden's?  I'm not here to argue who has the better plan, mind you, so if that's what you'd rather be doing, there's clearly many others on the board who'd bat a few around with you.

Myself, I'll vote in the general for whoever is the Democratic nominee, and since I live in New York, our primary is so late in the game that all my preferred candidates have already dropped out, so I'll cast my vote with a) whoever carries the broadest coalition of voters, particularly African-American voters, or b) whoever has the clear momentum behind them on April 28th (these two data points could be one and the same).
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 10 March 2020 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

But if Biden is the nominee, that only works if he's able to articulate some kind of plan to solve the problems he's pointing out. 
--------------------------------------------------
This is what I originally said.  So if anybody was arguing about the clarity of some kind of plan related to the issue, it wasn't responding to my original point, which was both that it needed to be clearly articulated AND that it needed to solve the problems in question.  Biden has not proposed comprehensive solutions to healthcare, student debt, etc.  He's proposed, so far, tinkering to keep collapsing systems stumbling along.  Which is exactly what Trump has been doing.  As I said in the first place, if Bloomberg runs ads for Biden that point to those problems that Trump isn't solving, it only works for Biden if he then has a clear plan to solve them.

This isn't better or worse plan.  This is a whole different type of plan.  I.e. one that solves the underlying issue one way or the other. 
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 10 March 2020 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

 Steve DeYoung wrote:
Biden has not proposed comprehensive solutions to healthcare, student debt, etc.  He's proposed, so far, tinkering to keep collapsing systems stumbling along.  Which is exactly what Trump has been doing.
With regard to healthcare, that is most certainly not true.  It could not be further from the truth.  Trump has consistently supported dismantling Obamacare and replacing it with nothing. That is substantially different than Biden's plans.  You may feel that Obamacare is a "collapsing system" but it managed to reduce the uninsured rate by about 5%.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 10 March 2020 at 3:56pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 10 March 2020 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

My wife and I only have healthcare because of Obamacare.  I’m one of those people.  It’s the US healthcare system as a whole that’s tottering. Biden adding a public option does not overhaul the system.  It tinkers with the current one.  It does nothing to reduce skyrocketing costs.  It does nothing about the pharmaceutical industry.  Biden can’t rely on his record for this because his record is on the wrong side of this.  He has to propose real solutions if he wants to beat Trump.  Instead, today he vowed that if he’s President and Medicare for All passes Congress and comes to his desk, he’ll pocket veto it.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 10 March 2020 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Steve, you said that Biden and Trump are both "tinkering to keep collapsing systems stumbling along."  Regardless of the debate about how well Obamacare is working and whether or not it's stumbling, Biden wants to keep it going and strengthen it, and Trump wants to dismantle it and replace it with nothing.  So Biden's proposal is not "exactly what Trump has been doing."  That was my point.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 10 March 2020 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Trump isn't claiming he's going to dismantle it and replace it with nothing.  He's going to void it out and then theoretically replace it with something even better just trust him.

But my point has been, as soon as Biden points that out, the response will be, "So what are you going to do to fix it?"  And "I'm going to firm up what we have right now..." didn't work so well for Hilary Clinton.  Running on the status quo, when people are monumentally unhappy, isn't going to cut it.

The reason why things like building a giant wall and Medicare for All catch the popular attention is that people are desperate for change, because the systems in this country, all of them, are coming apart at the seams.  Obama ran on hope and change, remember?  Biden is currently running on, "I'm going to be a better custodian than the current nut and I've got a great maintenance system to keep things from getting any worse."  That's probably true, but not inspiring.

And it becomes extra problematic when Trump starts running ads of Biden fighting to cut Social Security.  Or when Biden, today, announced that if his own party passed a health care bill, which polling suggests is currently favored by 60% of his own party, he wouldn't sign it.

He doesn't want to take on board Bernie's solutions to problems.  Okay.  But he needs to take on board Bernie's insights into what the problems are and where public unhappiness lies.  That's how Trump won.  He figured out where the pain was and he pandered to it.  It would be nice of Biden didn't just pander.  But if he wants to win, he's going to have to at least address peoples' concerns and offer them some material benefit in return for their vote.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 11 March 2020 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Steve DeYoung wrote:
Instead, today he vowed that if he’s President and Medicare for All passes Congress and comes to his desk, he’ll pocket veto it.

That is a completely inaccurate representation of what he said:

"I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now," Biden responded. "If they got that through in by some miracle or there's an epiphany that occurred and some miracle occurred that said, 'OK, it's passed,' then you got to look at the cost."

Biden added: "I want to know, how did they find $35 trillion? What is that doing? Is it going to significantly raise taxes on the middle class, which it will? What's going to happen?"

“Look, my opposition isn’t to the principle that there should be — you should have Medicare. I mean, I — look, everybody — health care should be a right in America. My opposition relates to whether or not, A, it’s doable, two, what the cost is, and what the consequences for the rest of the budget are.”

“How are you going to find $35 trillion over the next 10 years without having profound impacts on everything from taxes for middle class and working class people as well as well as the impact on the rest of the budget?”

If your takeaway from all that is simply that Biden's gonna veto MFA no matter what, then I don't know what to tell you.

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